Actual alternative motor possibilities?

gene cooley said:
These were used in Fiats if it makes you feel any better...
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In that case, forget it! :D Only kidding, but it really does not matter to me either way.

Worth looking into for those interested in a swap. In general I'd prefer to buy a running, driving car for the donor parts to do any swap. That way you know: 1) the engine and trans are in decent condition (or at least you can assess them), 2) any/all possible components required to make it all work are there (as far as the stock stuff goes), 3) you can look at how it all was installed originally and use additional bits to make the swap easier, 4) you can sell off the remains to recoup part of your initial investment (often coming out with much less expense than buying the individual components).
 
Dr.Jeff said:
In that case, forget it! :D Only kidding, but it really does not matter to me either way.

Worth looking into for those interested in a swap. In general I'd prefer to buy a running, driving car for the donor parts to do any swap. That way you know: 1) the engine and trans are in decent condition (or at least you can assess them), 2) any/all possible components required to make it all work are there (as far as the stock stuff goes), 3) you can look at how it all was installed originally and use additional bits to make the swap easier, 4) you can sell off the remains to recoup part of your initial investment (often coming out with much less expense than buying the individual components).
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My point here is that you could take a specific computer controlled engine, remove all of the original wiring (miles of it) and make it run on carbs and distributor.
Anything beyond that is is personal preference relating to installation.
 
gene cooley said:
take a specific computer controlled engine, remove all of the original wiring (miles of it) and make it run on carbs and distributor
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That's true Gene. Although I'd think the modern technology of electronically controlled fuel and spark is part of the reason for swapping to a modern powertrain. Perhaps not the primary reason, but why not take advantage of it if it is there. By buying a complete running/driving donor vehicle you can do it fairly easily. Otherwise it is quite difficult to do, other than as you say converting to older technology. And the aftermarket wire harnesses to do standalone factory conversions are quite expensive, not to mention the added stock components that you did not get when buying the engine by itself. Granted you don't necessarily have to convert to old technology; there are complete aftermarket standalone EFI / ignition systems, but they are REALLY costly (far more than the whole remaining swap expense).

However I'd guess that some of those donor GM vehicles you mentioned (with the Eco engines) are probably fairly cheap to find.
 
kmead said:
If one could make/get a downdraft intake versus the FWD friendly OE manifold it could probably be done with no cutting of the general sheet metal of the car or the trunk.
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Karl, regarding the intake manifold and avoiding cutting into the rear trunk. I don't know how much room is needed or how much this one saves, but it looks to be much shorter than the stock intake manifold. Although this particular example isn't cheap, would something like this work:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/328...chweb0_0,searchweb201602_5,searchweb201603_53

Or perhaps a custom "log" manifold could be made fairly easily?
 
Dr.Jeff said:
That's true Gene. Although I'd think the modern technology of electronically controlled fuel and spark is part of the reason for swapping to a modern powertrain. Perhaps not the primary reason, but why not take advantage of it if it is there. By buying a complete running/driving donor vehicle you can do it fairly easily. Otherwise it is quite difficult to do, other than as you say converting to older technology. And the aftermarket wire harnesses to do standalone factory conversions are quite expensive, not to mention the added stock components that you did not get when buying the engine by itself. Granted you don't necessarily have to convert to old technology; there are complete aftermarket standalone EFI / ignition systems, but they are REALLY costly (far more than the whole remaining swap expense).

However I'd guess that some of those donor GM vehicles you mentioned (with the Eco engines) are probably fairly cheap to find.
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Jeff, I have no doubt that for our 600 that computer control is the way to go for us.
We use a Megasquirt stand alone. I think we have about $800 in it over the last 7? years.
By comparison we have about the same amount in headers and mufflers in the same time period. It's not really that expensive.
 
From my quick googling. The vr6 weighs 396
Dr.Jeff said:
Karl, regarding the intake manifold and avoiding cutting into the rear trunk. I don't know how much room is needed or how much this one saves, but it looks to be much shorter than the stock intake manifold. Although this particular example isn't cheap, would something like this work:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/328...chweb0_0,searchweb201602_5,searchweb201603_53

Or perhaps a custom "log" manifold could be made fairly easily?
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I also wonder if ITBs are short enough to fit without going into the trunk. They sound cooler too ;)

Odie
 
Dr.Jeff said:
That's what I'm planning to use on the turbo engine.
When you say $800 into it, I assume you mean just for the EFI?
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I pulled up our "1st start" video and that was dated 2010 so costs and capabilities have changed since then.
At the time we had DIY Autotune build the Megasquirt unit and provide a fully labeled wiring harness. Around $500 I think. We have made $250-300 in upgrades plus some free updates since then. The $500 is probably way out of date for now.
If you want to view ancient history:

 
Look at the 4efte Toyota motor. It is exactly the same dimensions as the Fiat motor but far more powerful.
I'm rebuilding mine.
Aftermarket parts abound. Better intake manifold, exhaust manifolds, forged: pistons, end caps, conrods, rebuilt turbos, T4 turbo upgrades, bigger injectors and so forth.
It has a 5 speed bulletproof gearbox that is cable control, so it's easy to get the gears working without convoluted linkage systems. Microtech can provide an LT9c (standalone ECU) that has built in mapping for the 4EFTE engine.
From the factory it produces 130hp stock, but I got 118hp at the back wheels the first time it went over the rolling road and 140bhp the second time (at the wheels) with forged pistons rebuilt turbo (upgrade) and a couple of tweaks to the tuning. Also a 2.5" straight through exhaust that isn't noisy because of the turbo.
There's plenty of info and interest in this motor online and examples of 250bhp+ motors are out there.
I'm waiting on an aluminium flywheel and new manifolds before putting it back in.
 
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Hybridfiat said:
Look at the 4efte Toyota motor. It is exactly the same dimensions as the Fiat motor but far more powerful.
I'm rebuilding mine.
Aftermarket parts abound. Better intake manifold, exhaust manifolds, forged: pistons, end caps, conrods, rebuilt turbos, T4 turbo upgrades, bigger injectors and so forth.
It has a 5 speed bulletproof gearbox that is cable control, so it's easy to get the gears working without convoluted linkage systems. Microtech can provide an LT9c (standalone ECU) that has built in mapping for the 4EFTE engine.
From the factory it produces 130hp stock, but I got 118hp at the back wheels the first time it went over the rolling road and 140bhp the second time (at the wheels) with forged pistons rebuilt turbo (upgrade) and a couple of tweaks to the tuning. Also a 2.5" straight through exhaust that isn't noisy because of the turbo.
There's plenty of info and interest in this motor online and examples of 250bhp+ motors are out there.
I'm waiting on an aluminium flywheel and new manifolds before putting it back in.
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That sounds pretty much ideal, in terms of minimal cutting to fit. Googling that motor though, it's not something that ever sold in the US market - it says JDM Starlet? Perhaps there was a US version. Problem then is age of vehicle - finding a Toyota from the early 90's would be tough over here.
 
Hybridfiat said:
Look at the 4efte Toyota motor. It is exactly the same dimensions as the Fiat motor but far more powerful.
I'm rebuilding mine.
Aftermarket parts abound. Better intake manifold, exhaust manifolds, forged: pistons, end caps, conrods, rebuilt turbos, T4 turbo upgrades, bigger injectors and so forth.
It has a 5 speed bulletproof gearbox that is cable control, so it's easy to get the gears working without convoluted linkage systems. Microtech can provide an LT9c (standalone ECU) that has built in mapping for the 4EFTE engine.
From the factory it produces 130hp stock, but I got 118hp at the back wheels the first time it went over the rolling road and 140bhp the second time (at the wheels) with forged pistons rebuilt turbo (upgrade) and a couple of tweaks to the tuning. Also a 2.5" straight through exhaust that isn't noisy because of the turbo.
There's plenty of info and interest in this motor online and examples of 250bhp+ motors are out there.
I'm waiting on an aluminium flywheel and new manifolds before putting it back in.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately these were never offered in the US and I have never seen one of the engine importers bring one in. Yours is the second reference we have seen of such an install in an X. It does seem like an ideal candidate.

Turbo engines are somewhat problematic for an X as it is difficult to ensure enough airflow and space for an air to air intercooler which drives one to a air to water charge cooler which is just a bit more complexity.
 
Hybridfiat said:
Aftermarket parts abound.
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This is something (parts availability - particularly aftermarket performance ones) that I really had not considered too much before with this "swap" topic. Some of the engines discussed do not have quite the support as others do. At least not the extensive selection of options and prices for upgrades. After reading the comment about the Honda B intake intruding into the trunk, I looked online to see what was out there (purely curious). Wow, the plethora of stuff for those engines is simply staggering. As mentioned before I am not very familiar with Japanese vehicles so I wasn't quite aware to what extent that was true. Not only everything you could possibly dream of, but at all price levels and even choice of colors! Honestly this level of available options further makes the case for that powertrain choice (and others I'm sure). However there are still lots of other good options regardless.
 
kmead said:
Unfortunately these were never offered in the US and I have never seen one of the engine importers bring one in. Yours is the second reference we have seen of such an install in an X. It does seem like an ideal candidate.

Turbo engines are somewhat problematic for an X as it is difficult to ensure enough airflow and space for an air to air intercooler which drives one to a air to water charge cooler which is just a bit more complexity.
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I'm sorry to hear this.
It is the ideal candidate as the size and flexibility of the motor is perfect. From quick and drivable to knee tremblingly fast (sub 10sec 1/4 mile) and totally insanely difficult to drive on the road.
I have shifted the stock intercooler (above engine) to sit over the left side intake and moved the header tank to the rear boot. I also increased the air flow over it by cleaning out the plastic side vent of impediments. It had a fan with thermostat to start up when air temps went above 80C but it never came on so I took it off.
I had a whole thread on the build in the old site with pics but it's long gone.
As I rebuild the car I'll start another thread and post pics of the progress.
All I can say is carefully add up all the costs that you will incur and then double it.
 
Hybridfiat said:
I'm sorry to hear this.
It is the ideal candidate as the size and flexibility of the motor is perfect. From quick and drivable to knee tremblingly fast (sub 10sec 1/4 mile) and totally insanely difficult to drive on the road.
I have shifted the stock intercooler (above engine) to sit over the left side intake and moved the header tank to the rear boot. I also increased the air flow over it by cleaning out the plastic side vent of impediments. It had a fan with thermostat to start up when air temps went above 80C but it never came on so I took it off.
I had a whole thread on the build in the old site with pics but it's long gone.
As I rebuild the car I'll start another thread and post pics of the progress.
All I can say is carefully add up all the costs that you will incur and then double it.
Click to expand...

Please do post your new version/update, like so many things here it would be most instructive.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Looking forward to it.

I'm not familiar with those engines so had to look it up. Are they all 1.3L, or were different sizes available?
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There was a larger stroked motor that I'm not au fait with, the 5efte.
I am familiar with the 4efte.
These have 9:1 compression but the 4efte are 8:1 by virtue of a thicker head gasket. All internals are otherwise the same.
The motor will withstand at least 200hp before forged internals are needed. The gearbox lets go at around 350hp if treated badly. Or so the drag racing Starlet GT aficionados say, I haven't experienced that level of power as it means a much bigger turbo and consequent turbo lag. I want to drive mine everyday again.
I damaged my first motor because I tried to use the original radiator and core. NOT a good idea even flushed out by a 'pro' or so called 'radiator specialist'.
The Starlet GT and Galanza were domestic only like most of the up spec Japanese cars.
Typically domestic Japanese cars get all the extras and the power but the export models are basic.
'Grey' imports are how we get them.
The motor did make it to the US as the the dull 4efe that went into the Toyota TERCEL which WAS exported to the US.
Have a look for the TERCEL and just hang all the after-market bits onto the 4efe motor from one, be judicious with boost levels unless you change the head gasket for a thicker version.
This site has been very helpful to me.
https://www.ukstarletowners.com

If anyone decides to do this let me know and I'll scan some articles from "High Performance Imports" an Australian magazine from around 2005 that had a whole series on them getting a Starlet GT to run a 10sec 1/4 mile (They got 10.4sec). Lotsa detail like valve seat angles and porting, ECUs and tuning.
 
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Tom Ginefra said:
I watched a video last week, of a guy who put a Honda B motor in his X. IIRC, he said by rotating the engine slightly, he was able to fit it in the engine bay with NO cutting of any of the frame rails or having to modify any of the interior bay panels. Of course, he had to custom make and install the motor mounts. It was a snug fit, but the tightest clearance shown was still about the width of your index finger. In fact, he video'd himself sticking his finger in the gap to show the width. The installation was complete and the car was running and driving. The owner claimed he had no issues with any interference or driveability. Unfortunately, I was pulled away and got involved in something for work, and mistakenly closed the page. This is one of those times when my longtime policy of "automatically clearing my browsing history on exit" has come back to bite me in the ass, as I've been racking my brain searching all of the various websites this "could" have been on. I was excited to share it in this thread, but alas I have succumbed to yet another brain fart. What I do remember is the guy spoke English (he sounded American) and "I think" the car was Red. Sorry...that's all I got, right now. Of course, if I run across again, it I'll share asap.
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Are you sure it wasn’t a K20?

I happened on this YouTube video from Facebook with not cutting of the engine bay. He did rotated the engine more and had to change the foil pickup to do it. Looks pretty good

 
kmead said:
Are you sure it wasn’t a K20?

I happened on this YouTube video from Facebook with not cutting of the engine bay. He did rotated the engine more and had to change the foil pickup to do it. Looks pretty good

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This is too funny! I just found this video and realized it was the one I was talking about earlier. Of course as I'm watching it again, I'm thinking this is not a B series engine...this is not an American guy...I'm an idiot...then of course I immediately copied the link to the video and logged on to post it and tell you guys what an idiot I am...only to find out that Karl (as usual) had already discovered what an idiot I am.
 
Hybridfiat said:
There was a larger stroked motor that I'm not au fait with, the 5efte.
I am familiar with the 4efte.
These have 9:1 compression but the 4efte are 8:1 by virtue of a thicker head gasket. All internals are otherwise the same.
The motor will withstand at least 200hp before forged internals are needed. The gearbox lets go at around 350hp if treated badly. Or so the drag racing Starlet GT aficionados say, I haven't experienced that level of power as it means a much bigger turbo and consequent turbo lag. I want to drive mine everyday again.
I damaged my first motor because I tried to use the original radiator and core. NOT a good idea even flushed out by a 'pro' or so called 'radiator specialist'.
The Starlet GT and Galanza were domestic only like most of the up spec Japanese cars.
Typically domestic Japanese cars get all the extras and the power but the export models are basic.
'Grey' imports are how we get them.
The motor did make it to the US as the the dull 4efe that went into the Toyota TERCEL which WAS exported to the US.
Have a look for the TERCEL and just hang all the after-market bits onto the 4efe motor from one, be judicious with boost levels unless you change the head gasket for a thicker version.
This site has been very helpful to me.
https://www.ukstarletowners.com

If anyone decides to do this let me know and I'll scan some articles from "High Performance Imports" an Australian magazine from around 2005 that had a whole series on them getting a Starlet GT to run a 10sec 1/4 mile (They got 10.4sec). Lotsa detail like valve seat angles and porting, ECUs and tuning.
Click to expand...

What does one of these weigh?
 
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