The Multi Air Project
- Thread starter Sandgroper
- Start date
Sandgroper
True Classic
Thanks Tony
That is much appreciated (vid downloaded and watched the first one a few times already). I had no idea there was another one (in the DL queue)
Dat's a big hole
Cut outs on the mule look like they line up with the oil cooler/filter, CAT and the turbo on the 'front' of the engine. Aside from the additional 'fab' work to move these components did you come across any reason they couldn't be shifted for a 'no cut' engine swap?
My paper (so far) excersize was to install a larger remote oil cooler/filter with a custom fab'd side mount turbo manifold in the style of this Punto one
The crank pulley side/bottom mount looks uncomplicated enough but I wondered how you solved dog bone (torque) mount, are you relying on the GB upper mount?
I think the price of Abarth engines from wrecks are about to go up.
Again, that's good work
Sandy
That is much appreciated (vid downloaded and watched the first one a few times already). I had no idea there was another one (in the DL queue)
Dat's a big hole
Cut outs on the mule look like they line up with the oil cooler/filter, CAT and the turbo on the 'front' of the engine. Aside from the additional 'fab' work to move these components did you come across any reason they couldn't be shifted for a 'no cut' engine swap?
My paper (so far) excersize was to install a larger remote oil cooler/filter with a custom fab'd side mount turbo manifold in the style of this Punto one
The crank pulley side/bottom mount looks uncomplicated enough but I wondered how you solved dog bone (torque) mount, are you relying on the GB upper mount?
I think the price of Abarth engines from wrecks are about to go up.
Again, that's good work
Sandy
Sandgroper
True Classic
Bandwidth Alert
This big one is for you Karl
Side pods anyone
This big one is for you Karl
Side pods anyone
Dan Sarandrea (Phila)
Waitin' On Parts...
Gulp!
Wow, still a lot of surgery needed on that bulkhead and its bottom box section to make things fit.....
Wow, still a lot of surgery needed on that bulkhead and its bottom box section to make things fit.....
kmead
Old enough to know better
The engine compartment was definitely designed for the power package it came with.
I would still love to see the 16v twin cam like Russ McBride put in his years ago. I almost bought that engine (or possibly another from the same seller), I still kick myself over that one...
Does anyone know what became of that car?
I would still love to see the 16v twin cam like Russ McBride put in his years ago. I almost bought that engine (or possibly another from the same seller), I still kick myself over that one...
Does anyone know what became of that car?
TonyK
True Classic
Room
Although having a no cut installation is always preferred we come into an issue of running out of room. If you look a the installation, installing the turbo charger over the transmission now would interfere with the shifting cables which are on the top of the transmission. Also you have to get the exhaust pipe down under the car and that too complicates space again. At the firewall is the fuel pump, the shifter cables, the water lines that go under the car, the clutch hydraulic line and a wiring harness. You also need to get past with the AC lines as well. Routing the exhaust under the plastic intake plenum may not be a good idea either.
The whole intent was to take a stock engine, install it with as much factory supplied equipment and get it to run. Once that has been resolved well then there are all kinds of re-do's and thinking.
Matt was going to delete the oil cooler in his concept. Just to let you know when you start the engine cold the oil pressure is 94 PSI at the switch. The switch opens at 7 PSI. The sooner the oil is warmed up the better it will flow.
As I have stated in my video 100 miles were put on the car, the next 100 have brought to light other problems that require resolving. The shifter required modification today as a linkage broke. Problems are expected.
The engine at times is going into LIMP mode which requires removing the battery cable from the battery to do a hard reset. I have not done any programming on the ECU, but merely tricked it into running. I know the parameters that are tripping it, now to just fool it again.
Still at it.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada
Thanks Tony
That is much appreciated (vid downloaded and watched the first one a few times already). I had no idea there was another one (in the DL queue)
Dat's a big hole
Cut outs on the mule look like they line up with the oil cooler/filter, CAT and the turbo on the 'front' of the engine. Aside from the additional 'fab' work to move these components did you come across any reason they couldn't be shifted for a 'no cut' engine swap?
My paper (so far) excersize was to install a larger remote oil cooler/filter with a custom fab'd side mount turbo manifold in the style of this Punto one
The crank pulley side/bottom mount looks uncomplicated enough but I wondered how you solved dog bone (torque) mount, are you relying on the GB upper mount?
I think the price of Abarth engines from wrecks are about to go up.
Again, that's good work
Sandy
Although having a no cut installation is always preferred we come into an issue of running out of room. If you look a the installation, installing the turbo charger over the transmission now would interfere with the shifting cables which are on the top of the transmission. Also you have to get the exhaust pipe down under the car and that too complicates space again. At the firewall is the fuel pump, the shifter cables, the water lines that go under the car, the clutch hydraulic line and a wiring harness. You also need to get past with the AC lines as well. Routing the exhaust under the plastic intake plenum may not be a good idea either.
The whole intent was to take a stock engine, install it with as much factory supplied equipment and get it to run. Once that has been resolved well then there are all kinds of re-do's and thinking.
Matt was going to delete the oil cooler in his concept. Just to let you know when you start the engine cold the oil pressure is 94 PSI at the switch. The switch opens at 7 PSI. The sooner the oil is warmed up the better it will flow.
As I have stated in my video 100 miles were put on the car, the next 100 have brought to light other problems that require resolving. The shifter required modification today as a linkage broke. Problems are expected.
The engine at times is going into LIMP mode which requires removing the battery cable from the battery to do a hard reset. I have not done any programming on the ECU, but merely tricked it into running. I know the parameters that are tripping it, now to just fool it again.
Still at it.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada
TonyK
True Classic
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
These side coolers might fit nicely in some Dallara flares! nt
.
.
Way beyond the norm of
anything I've seen in fabrication.
Pouring your own aluminum casts for steel fabrication? Really? Who does that?
TonyK that's who, and I know no other. INCREDIBLE work. Closest thing to that is
Ricardo who makes forms for his plastic and badge reproductions -which is amazing in itself.
Awesome work. Makes me want to learn more about this process.
Big thumbs up on this project! :thumbsup:
anything I've seen in fabrication.
Pouring your own aluminum casts for steel fabrication? Really? Who does that?
TonyK that's who, and I know no other. INCREDIBLE work. Closest thing to that is
Ricardo who makes forms for his plastic and badge reproductions -which is amazing in itself.
Awesome work. Makes me want to learn more about this process.
Big thumbs up on this project! :thumbsup:
TonyK
True Classic
Blow off valve
This is a stock Abarth engine that has a blow off valve. The only reason you do not hear it when you drive an Abarth is because in an X1/9 your head is 18 inches from the turbo charger.
TonyK;
Grimsby Ontario Canada
This is a stock Abarth engine that has a blow off valve. The only reason you do not hear it when you drive an Abarth is because in an X1/9 your head is 18 inches from the turbo charger.
TonyK;
Grimsby Ontario Canada
TonyK
True Classic
ECU
When this project was started many things had to be considered. I have worked with MegaSquirt and in short order making tables to run and engine is time consuming and trial and error. Fiat spent $100 million developing this engine, I don't think I have the resources to program a working ECU without first frying a dozen engines. For that reason I used the stock ECU and kept what was required to meet the protocols to start and run the engine. That being said I have currently run into problems now that the engine is warming up fully and going into limp mode and I am trying to isolate it.
According to Brett Melcon he has told me that there will be a fellow at FFO by the name of Toby that can reprogram the ECU and delete certain protocols. His reluctance on a Street Abarth is liability that could lead to legal action. In my case that should not be an issue. So for now as of today I have limited range on the car. The video's are all short range of less than 10 miles. When I took the car out and drove for 50 miles I was getting into problems of Limp Mode.
Still at it.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
When this project was started many things had to be considered. I have worked with MegaSquirt and in short order making tables to run and engine is time consuming and trial and error. Fiat spent $100 million developing this engine, I don't think I have the resources to program a working ECU without first frying a dozen engines. For that reason I used the stock ECU and kept what was required to meet the protocols to start and run the engine. That being said I have currently run into problems now that the engine is warming up fully and going into limp mode and I am trying to isolate it.
According to Brett Melcon he has told me that there will be a fellow at FFO by the name of Toby that can reprogram the ECU and delete certain protocols. His reluctance on a Street Abarth is liability that could lead to legal action. In my case that should not be an issue. So for now as of today I have limited range on the car. The video's are all short range of less than 10 miles. When I took the car out and drove for 50 miles I was getting into problems of Limp Mode.
Still at it.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
Nico
Daily Driver
Great work TonyK
TonyK,
I really love the fact you taking your time to make videos and post your work, Your an amazing craftsman.
Two weeks ago at the Fiat Breakout in Ottawa we were discussing how cool it would be if someone put a Fiat 500 Abarth in the X1/9
I'm really impressed how big and resourceful this Xweb forum is.
Congrats to the Admins
TonyK,
I really love the fact you taking your time to make videos and post your work, Your an amazing craftsman.
Two weeks ago at the Fiat Breakout in Ottawa we were discussing how cool it would be if someone put a Fiat 500 Abarth in the X1/9
I'm really impressed how big and resourceful this Xweb forum is.
Congrats to the Admins
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
You ain't seen nuttin' 'til you see...
the Clay Vase and Coffee Cup I made in the 1st grade!
TK is unstoppable ain't he... what would kick a NORMAL person to the curb, he just plows through it all casting and machining the parts he needs to complete the modification. He's amazing in so many arenas...
the Clay Vase and Coffee Cup I made in the 1st grade!
TK is unstoppable ain't he... what would kick a NORMAL person to the curb, he just plows through it all casting and machining the parts he needs to complete the modification. He's amazing in so many arenas...
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Niklas Andersson
Daily Driver
Must know more about this now!!!!
So cool and impressive.
You have found the holy grail and I want one too! :excited:
So cool and impressive.
You have found the holy grail and I want one too! :excited:
Sandgroper
True Classic
Thank you Tony
I regret if I am appearing to doubt your method or the concept of keeping an intact stock power unit, I'm honestly just exploring options. I stupidly let a wreck pass as I thought it would never fit in an X 1/9 ( and you have so clearly proved it can be done) so I only have other folks cars and the Interwebs to prepare any crafty plan whilst I wait for some poor sod to wreck their 500. That's just the engineering voices rattling around inside the chrome dome, plan, plan, have another plan & backup plan then finally execute. Because it often goes pear shaped. Often I get tagged a fusspot so sorry if I appear to be
badgering you.
The first of anything is always the hardest, you guys did very well. Your body work / foundry skills are to be aplauded. I have no doubt that your install will evolve over time, when tricks to move the down pipe and oil cooler become obvious. My Uno X has been refined over numerous engine and gearbox changes since I acquired it, hey that's called a hobby isn't it.
Concur that plumbing the down pipe in any position other than under in the decent recess where the block and the GB meet is just plain dopey. By flattening out the exh' pipework and going horizontal at the same position the current exhaust log manifold is the plan, moving the plastic oil separator (10) has already an aftermarket Alloy part. All Angles Design (AAD) has a AOS aka Oil Catch Can (or any good can) that can be mounted elsewhere at the side of the engine bay so if feeds the engine as it should. I am not so sure I share your concerns about the cover when doing this side mount turbo. I can't see why if properly executed a ceramic coated/shielded side mount manifold will be a greater heat source than the current setup. No AC and shield the shifter cables, they go past the DP in this implimentation anyway.
*Cylinder Head Cover 1.4L Turbocharged*
Ta muchly for the oil system information, FWIW my current Punto Turbo powered X 1/9 is pumping 8.2 Bar * 2.5k RPM cold so I let it warm up before getting too frisky. She is a remote cooling system with about 5 feet of braided line including the filter mount. These Turbo motors die without adequate oil pressure/ temperature control so fabricating an block adapter plate and braided lines was on the plan. To omit the cooler is just asking for trouble noting the MultiAir inlet soleniods, the control orifices are small in places and coaking those up will be as bad as not changing oil on the BMW Vanos system. What I was really after was moving all those bulky bits away from the firewall, oil cooler/filter should be easy enough. The oil separator is easy to move away from its current location to free up space for the side mount turbo.
*oil filter cooler assy*
That you determined the turbo unit will be in the way of the shifters is a worry for me. I had no idea that the gear linkage was so tall/bulky. Will take a better look next time I get under the bonnet of one of these. But in the meantime here's a few images of the C510, which part is of concern?
*5-Spd C510 Manual*
*Transaxle Assembly*
*Gear Shift Cable And Bracket*
The 'back' CAT just has to be close enough to the turbine exducer that the spent gasses haven't cooled signifficantly so it works efficiently and doesn't confuse the ECU parameters. I think I read this on another Board about a year ago and the consensus was that the EGT would be too low by the time the reading was taken. I'm confident that doing locating that aft of the sump is doable as the issue will be the trailing O2 sensor isn't getting "correct" data so it gets upset. It's looking for a certain small range of parameters, and if it's different you get a CEL. Mind you, if you snag a scan tool and check the readout from the rear O2 sensor; odds are nothing is wrong with what it's reading, just out of "spec" that the ECU wants to see. Very small range for "in spec" per mfg standards. It expects the AFR to be 14.7-1 at sea level, which is lean for this car. 12-1 or slightly less is ideal for my setup, so if it tries to "force" to run even leaner and cannot you'll get a CEL too. Picking up one of the vibrant racing adjustable O2 spacer bungs may solve that. The folks at TMC Motorsport already make a DECAT Pipe with some known solutions for the two oxygen sensors seeing the incorrect parameters.
For your downpipe method hunt on the 500USA board, it will pop up an improvement to the stock CAT opening up the internal Dia' of the inlet flange to 2.5 inch nets some good HP, look for the 'Norcal modded pipe'. The CAT inlet flange is smaller than the CAT oulet and opening this Dia' up showed improvement.
Still scratching my head why Fiat did this as that is the worst place to put a restriction after a turbo, unless they were intending to choke it off on purpose and limit the power output?
*Sensors Oxygen*
I am left to assume that you just made a bracket for the LH chassis rail to fit this (below) instead of emulating a dogbone. You have to support the GB on this side anyway so I just wondered if this was enough to limit the powertrains dynamic torque movement on decel' / acceleration. The less this motor moves the less allowance for body clearances it needs.
http://postimg.org/image/w3paa9hu5/
WRT the faults your getting, the output signals that the ECU makes into making a little more boost - using resistors will set a fault quickly since that will adjust the signal all the time. You need to change the ECU flash to do this reliably, if you want some hints PM me and I will point you at an interesting development this year. No 2014 2015 MY programing available yet as the Protocols are yet to be decrypted, but your older system is probably already mapped.
FWIW
Resetting the Abarth ECU
Disconnect Neg & Pos Battery terminals
Hold down brake pedal for >15 seconds
Let sit disconnected for 10 min
Reconnect Battery Terminals
Put key in & turn to on (don't start)
Wait one minute
(don't touch gas, make sure a/c is off)
Turn off
Start car (don't touch gas)
Let idle for about 3 minutes
Drive for around for 70 miles (keep it below 4k rpm - no sport mode)
Bottom line. If the clock in the EVIC has not been reset and flashing after reconnecting the battery, the ECU has not been reset.
See all these distracting questions, you were smart to keep your creation under wraps. But look seven thousand hits and rising. If enthusiasts like us got around to building enough 'modern' X 1/9's perhaps that will get the attention of Sergio's Lieutenants. Whilst I have no hope the excellent remake of the Lancia Stratos will never see production, mabe an X will. Goodness knows the 500, despite serving Fiat well, is not seen by the great unwashed as a pocket sports car. The folks at Mini are pursuing a funky Superleggera roadster in their line up from the concept car they showed at last year’s Concorso d’Eleganza Villa d’Este in Italy. Is their enough apetite for little convertables again to warrant investment, a little Fiat targa for 2020? - hhhmmmmm
To save folks looking for it:
Built on the same front-wheel-drive platform that powers the Mini so not on the same leavel as a Fiata or a chassis created with mid engined RWD IMHO, good luck to them. http://www.topspeed.com/cars/mini/2016-mini-superleggera-ar163777.html
Anyway, good work and keep on keeping on.
My best
Sandy
kmead
Old enough to know better
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Sandgroper
True Classic
Open Sourced ECU tools
Tony,
Have a look at OpenFlash Performance
https://www.youtube.com/user/VishnuTuningVids?app=desktop
Shiv Pathak is the founder of Vishnu Tuning and CEO of OpenFlash Performance, the work done on Ducati, Porsche, EVO and Subaru engine tuning is well respected. The Fiat marque was always small and the fact that his company not only considered but actually moved to develop a working product is amazing in the short time they have applied themselves to the task. We will all be better off for it if a bipartisan engine map exchange evolved here on Xweb.
Until I saw this in Q2 of this year I was busy looking at how to totally get rid of the standard ECUs and run full aftermarket system, now that this product has surfaced perhaps its not a better option.
OFTs are available for 2012-2013 Abarths: http://openflashtablet.com/Automotive/Fiat/index.html
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?21158-OpenFlash-Tech-ECU-tuning-info
I like the Open Flash Tablet solution for a number of reasons
The price
The features which include customer ability to tune and share maps
The support for an open-source and non-encrypted tune files
Free access to any new and updated off the shelf tune files...
With the OFT, you have access to the full flash-able EPROM image. This includes all the tuning tables as well as the diagnostic code toggles. These toggles will have to be defined in the definition file which will take a little time when you pull devices and CANBUS modules from the standard 500 CANBUS System to fit the powertrain in an X, but it is definitely something that they have said they could sort out in the future.
Granted, I'm sure their various base maps are very good and for most people it's more than enough in stock trim. I've just always thought that if I'm going to put down that kind of money for tuner hardware, I should have the access to software that will view, edit, and tune my own Maps. That is exactly what OFT offers, when you buy their tuner they also provide files necessary to use TunerPro to view, edit, and tune the ecu.
The OpenFlash Tablet interfaces with a computer using OpenFlash Manager. It is a Windows based application. But there is the ability run it virtually on Macs though Parallels if you are not a fan of Microsoft.
I allows you to backup the factory ECU EPROM flash when you marry the OFT with your cars ECU it'll take a copy of your stock map/checksum. That way you can flash back to stock.
The Fiat tables have Torque Limiters which are noticeable in First and Second Gear third and Fourth are less limiting but in our application in an X this feature can be used to stop excessive wheel spin for those without a smart right foot. The (Factory PCM) Power Output Algorithm in the 500 is aggressive in First and Second Gear. Third and Fourth gear power is less limiting but the the (Factory PCM) Boost Algorithm is Limited to 18psi in all Gears. In 3rd gear and up, on a standard Abarth you will see a indicated peak of ~23-24psi in the midrange. But this is pre-throttle measurement as shown on Fiats rather inaccurate stock boost pressure gauge. When boost was logged by the dyno, OpenFlash Performance said they see peak transient boost (accurately) in the 20-21psi range.
The problem with running a different to stock turbo and exhaust pipework to shoe this motor into an X 1/9 without cutting the bodywork is that you can, at times, get into a condition where the actual boost is higher than the ECU's target boost pressure maps. In that case, the standard ECU takes action by closing the throttle, retarding timing, adding fuel, etc, all of which will actually reduce engine power. The other problem with monitoring boost by the stock boost gauge is that it is reading off the of signal upstream of the throttle body. So when the throttle closes, the boost reading will go up to the added resistance in the induction system. But actual boost in the manifold (where it counts!) is actually lower. The best approach it seems is to let the ECU induce the boost rise and not force boost by mechanical means (MBC, integral WG rod, etc,.) But there is still so much testing to be done once a modified Abarth powertrain gets moved into an X 1/9 engine bay.
This product may be far superior to the Hondadata that makes other engine swaps so appealing. You mentioned that you had experience with MSquirt, this ECU tool should be a walk in the park.
Tony,
Have a look at OpenFlash Performance
https://www.youtube.com/user/VishnuTuningVids?app=desktop
Shiv Pathak is the founder of Vishnu Tuning and CEO of OpenFlash Performance, the work done on Ducati, Porsche, EVO and Subaru engine tuning is well respected. The Fiat marque was always small and the fact that his company not only considered but actually moved to develop a working product is amazing in the short time they have applied themselves to the task. We will all be better off for it if a bipartisan engine map exchange evolved here on Xweb.
Until I saw this in Q2 of this year I was busy looking at how to totally get rid of the standard ECUs and run full aftermarket system, now that this product has surfaced perhaps its not a better option.
OFTs are available for 2012-2013 Abarths: http://openflashtablet.com/Automotive/Fiat/index.html
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?21158-OpenFlash-Tech-ECU-tuning-info
I like the Open Flash Tablet solution for a number of reasons
The price
The features which include customer ability to tune and share maps
The support for an open-source and non-encrypted tune files
Free access to any new and updated off the shelf tune files...
With the OFT, you have access to the full flash-able EPROM image. This includes all the tuning tables as well as the diagnostic code toggles. These toggles will have to be defined in the definition file which will take a little time when you pull devices and CANBUS modules from the standard 500 CANBUS System to fit the powertrain in an X, but it is definitely something that they have said they could sort out in the future.
Granted, I'm sure their various base maps are very good and for most people it's more than enough in stock trim. I've just always thought that if I'm going to put down that kind of money for tuner hardware, I should have the access to software that will view, edit, and tune my own Maps. That is exactly what OFT offers, when you buy their tuner they also provide files necessary to use TunerPro to view, edit, and tune the ecu.
The OpenFlash Tablet interfaces with a computer using OpenFlash Manager. It is a Windows based application. But there is the ability run it virtually on Macs though Parallels if you are not a fan of Microsoft.
I allows you to backup the factory ECU EPROM flash when you marry the OFT with your cars ECU it'll take a copy of your stock map/checksum. That way you can flash back to stock.
The Fiat tables have Torque Limiters which are noticeable in First and Second Gear third and Fourth are less limiting but in our application in an X this feature can be used to stop excessive wheel spin for those without a smart right foot. The (Factory PCM) Power Output Algorithm in the 500 is aggressive in First and Second Gear. Third and Fourth gear power is less limiting but the the (Factory PCM) Boost Algorithm is Limited to 18psi in all Gears. In 3rd gear and up, on a standard Abarth you will see a indicated peak of ~23-24psi in the midrange. But this is pre-throttle measurement as shown on Fiats rather inaccurate stock boost pressure gauge. When boost was logged by the dyno, OpenFlash Performance said they see peak transient boost (accurately) in the 20-21psi range.
The problem with running a different to stock turbo and exhaust pipework to shoe this motor into an X 1/9 without cutting the bodywork is that you can, at times, get into a condition where the actual boost is higher than the ECU's target boost pressure maps. In that case, the standard ECU takes action by closing the throttle, retarding timing, adding fuel, etc, all of which will actually reduce engine power. The other problem with monitoring boost by the stock boost gauge is that it is reading off the of signal upstream of the throttle body. So when the throttle closes, the boost reading will go up to the added resistance in the induction system. But actual boost in the manifold (where it counts!) is actually lower. The best approach it seems is to let the ECU induce the boost rise and not force boost by mechanical means (MBC, integral WG rod, etc,.) But there is still so much testing to be done once a modified Abarth powertrain gets moved into an X 1/9 engine bay.
This product may be far superior to the Hondadata that makes other engine swaps so appealing. You mentioned that you had experience with MSquirt, this ECU tool should be a walk in the park.
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