how remove starter from 1300cc X1/9?

starter shorted to engine block

I removed the IMI-158 starter, and the gray rubber boot which covers the copper post for the lug connecting the solenoid to the starter motor was worn through where it contacts the end of the post. I believe that it was the rubber of this boot that made it feel like something was being compressed as I pushed the starter into place. There was a neat round hole in the boot just over the end of the post, and I believe the post was contacting the engine block. So, when the solenoid actuated and tried to send power to the starter motor, it sent all the voltage to ground via the engine block. IMI told Allison's that there have been 3 revisions to the design of their model 158 starter. There is no version no. on the one I have, and I probably got an ealy version. IMI apparently doesn't do recalls.:(

Vido P.
 
Hey Vido...

Ya know there are endless possibilities here... but the bottom line so far that you have proven is... this thing doesn't fit or work... to date.

One possibility I was trying to say was that this starter (whether it has the correct part number or not...) may have the gear drive for the 1500, and NOT the 1300.

I would think that a tooth count, and some staring and comparing would resolve this.

As for the grounding of the large copper lug when the solenoid was activated... this could be but I would then doubt the motor would lock up or slam or whatever noise you said it made. I would think there would be tremendous heat and arcing... and evidence of that as well. I do think the solenoid would engage but I don't think the starter would make any noise.

Just some thoughts... Hope you get it resolved quickly... And if Mark can't help maybe I can next week.

OH... and lastly... if it proves to be the starter... there are ways to make IMI come around. Its just most electrical auto parts come with no returns... but that's not the case if they supplied you with the wrong part or a defective part.
 
Black-Tooth said:
...One possibility I was trying to say was that this starter (whether it has the correct part number or not...) may have the gear drive for the 1500, and NOT the 1300.
I would think that a tooth count, and some staring and comparing would resolve this.
Click to expand...
Mark Allison did ask me to mike the pinion gear diameters on both the OEM and the IMI starter - they were both 1.000 inch (not a metric size!).

As for the grounding of the large copper lug when the solenoid was activated... this could be but I would then doubt the motor would lock up or slam or whatever noise you said it made. I would think there would be tremendous heat and arcing... and evidence of that as well. I do think the solenoid would engage but I don't think the starter would make any noise.
Click to expand...
There was a "clack" - what I imagined to be the sound of the solenoid engaging. There was no arcing or hissing or spitting or the smell of arcing because the copper post was firmly in contact with the engine block. And the starter made no noise. It only "whirred" when the starter was unmounted and the copper lug was no longer in contact with the engine block. At least that's the scenario that I imagine. I suspect that IMI had already fixed this problem by the time they made their 3rd revision, but I probably have their 0th revision. We'll see what Mark Allison finds out.

Vido P.
 
I'm afraid I may have jinxed you at the very beginning of this thread when I suggested that it would be easy:sad:

You might want to compare the noses of the old and new starters carefully side-by-side, see if there is any difference in their shape at all. It's a real long shot, but....

The early '74 bell housing is a bit different from the later 1300 cars (and even later that model year). This doesn't create any problems for the stock starters, which are fully interchangeable among the 1300s, but it is just barely possible that the aftermarket starter has a bulge or protrusion somewhere that makes it work on everything but an early '74.

And is there any possibility that the new starter is fouling on the oil pressure sender? That's a lump on that side of the engine that only the '74 has.

These are both real long shots, not likely at all, but either would explain why a generally competent and responsible vendor would think the starter fits a 1300 but it still doesn't fit YOUR car.
 
From the archives

I found a few threads where AlexK and Steve Shonk are discussing the initial versions of this starter.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/12159/message/1121460407/Ordering

Alex mentions an issue with fitting the starter to his 74, but it doesn't sound as if it prevented starting and IMI was supposed to make adjustments for the production run.

Just thought I would mention it. :)
 
Another great search effort by Jim......!!

JimD said:
.....I found a few threads where AlexK and Steve Shonk are discussing the initial versions of this starter. http://www.network54.com/Forum/12159/message/1121460407/Ordering
Just thought I would mention it. :)
Click to expand...

......hey Jim, you remind me of that little guy Radar :geek:, from that great '70's TV show MASH! Radar could always find what was gonna happen in about 30 seconds time!! :shock2:

cheers, Ian - NZ
 
to INSTALL OEM starter in 1300cc X1/9

It took me 2 afternoons of grunting under my car, but I finally learned the "trick" to re-installing the OEM starter. First, with the battery's ground cable disconnected, and with the starter half way into the engine bay, connect the electrical cables, but leave the 2 cables with the eyelet lugs loose on the copper post. Those cables, especially the one from the battery, are STIFF, and they will prevent the starter from rotating into place with its mounting plate against the bell housing unless they are allowed to rotate on the post. Then, with the starter in place and after tightening down the 3 mounting bolts (using a 13mm socket with 2 lenghts of extension), tighten down the nut over the electrical eyelet lugs using a ratchet with a 3" extension and the trusty 13mm socket. That may be an exercise in wishing that the oil filter were off, but by carefully squirming the socket and extension up between the oil filter and coolant hoses and past the thcket of wires, you can get the socket over the nut to tighten it down.

Vido P.
 
grounded electrical post

EricH said:
...You might want to compare the noses of the old and new starters carefully side-by-side, see if there is any difference in their shape at all. It's a real long shot, but....
Click to expand...
If you mean the "shroud" which reaches into the bell housing to support the end of the starter motor's pinion gear shaft, the IMI starter doesn't have that feature as the bearings at the base of the pinion gear don't require support at the far end.
The early '74 bell housing is a bit different from the later 1300 cars (and even later that model year). This doesn't create any problems for the stock starters, which are fully interchangeable among the 1300s, but it is just barely possible that the aftermarket starter has a bulge or protrusion somewhere that makes it work on everything but an early '74.
Click to expand...
That intra-year variation could conceivably be the cause of the problem. Mechanics have said that there is something unusual about the clutch and flywheel dimensions. It doesn't affect the OEM starter, though.

And is there any possibility that the new starter is fouling on the oil pressure sender? That's a lump on that side of the engine that only the '74 has.
These are both real long shots, not likely at all, but either would explain why a generally competent and responsible vendor would think the starter fits a 1300 but it still doesn't fit YOUR car.
Click to expand...
Right now, I'm drained by this project. I'll let Mark Allison find the reason why the coppe post for the short cable between the solenoid and the starter motor contacts the engine block and then see if IMI will back up their claim with another starter that fits.

Vido P.
 
smaller oil filter helps

It just occurred to me that the struggle to tighten the nut over the eyelet lugs could have been avoided if I had a smaller (i.e. narrower) oil filter. The one I have been using for decades is the Fram PH-7, the widest and tallest filter that I think will fit the car. In comparison, what I've seen some mechanics use looks like a motorcycle oil filter. Even if you drain the oil and remove the oil filter before fiddling with the starter, it would be handy to have a small filter in place to catch the oil dribble while you work.

Vido P.
 
re-designed adapter plate

Vido Peran said:
...I'll let Mark Allison find the reason why the coppe post for the short cable between the solenoid and the starter motor contacts the engine block ...
Click to expand...
IMI is talking about machining a new adapter plates with the bolt hole patterns for the solenoid rotated 10-20 degrees to move the electrical post away from the engine block. He does not have a 1300cc engine block to see if that would work, and if there were to be too much rotation, the starter motor (which sits on top of the solenoid) might contact the firewall. I don't have the facilities, energy, or patience to do IMI's experiments for them, but Mark has a 1300cc X1/9 sitting in his shop, so I proposed that Mark do the experimenting to see which adapter affords clearance on both sides and then report it to Chris at IMI, and then Chris could send a copy of the newly re-designed adapter plate for me to put on my IMI starter. We'll see how their project goes...

Vido P.
 
I'm very interested in this result, as I have one of Marks IMI-158 hi torque gear reduction starters for my race car build that I haven't fitted yet...

I just went out to my shed and put a 4 speed bellhousing onto a 1300 block though, and your absolutely right - the small copper terminal on the side which has the grey rubber boot over it is hard against the block, and prevents the starter from seating flat against the bellhousing...there would be around 1mm clearance to two of the mounting holes ... of course tightening the bolts up would pull the starter in flat, but the terminal would then have a high likelyhood of piercing the rubber boot and going to ground.

I think the problem could be solved by some judicious metal removal from the head of the nut holding the power terminal and perhaps the copper post as well... at last resort perhaps a small amount of metal removal from the engine block... but that's going to be impossible in your case with the engine in the car.

I'd be interested to know if the problem is resolved, and how...

SteveC
 
I've been working with IMI for the last two days and the new end pieces are being machined now and the revised units will be available later this week. It will cure the stud/block contact issue
 
fiatfactory said:
I'm very interested in this result, as I have one of Marks IMI-158 hi torque gear reduction starters for my race car build that I haven't fitted yet...
I just went out to my shed and put a 4 speed bellhousing onto a 1300 block though, and your absolutely right...
I'd be interested to know if the problem is resolved, and how...

SteveC
Click to expand...
I'll keep this forum posted on any progress. But I haven't heard that even a start has been made by IMI on machining a new adapter plate or by Allison's on testing it. I suspect that it's a very low priority due to the rarity of 1300cc engines still in use.

Vido P.
 
That's outstanding, Mark. I thought that when Chris didn't call as he said he would, it had been put on the back burner. I'm glad to hear that there is definite progress.

Vido P.
 
Voilà!

dcioccarelli said:
...Also, as mentioned, ensure that your ground strap is in good condition.

Cheers,
Dom.
Click to expand...
I wire brushed the electrical connections from the front trunk bulkhead (battery ground) in the front to the grounding strap that connects the chassis to the bell housing in the back. I also wire brushed the connectors at the solenoid and starter, and I even wire brushed the 3 mounting bolts for the starter.
Voilà! The re-installed re-manned OEM starter hasn't once failed to start up in 3 days :dance: despite replays of the hot-soak scenarios. This is mildly surprising because only one of those lugs or contact surfaces looked corroded - the threads on one of the 3 starter mounting bolts. Bad electrical connections must be one of the banes of old - oops, CLASSIC - cars. :laugh:

Vido P.
 
I can guarantee you that this issue is high priority, including dismantling a 1300 car for test fitting and lots of phone calls and pics being exchanged with IMI. Sorry I wasn't aware of this issue before or we would have addressed it with the starters we had in stock
 
I received the revised end plate today from IMI, and test fit it to a 1300. I called and left you a voice mail, please contact me asap
 
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