Can we now buy X1/9 parts at Fiat Chrysler Dealerships?

Not quite so simple on who assembled Bertone X1/9 bodies into complete X1/9 cars.

While Bertone made the body shells from the very start with the body shells being sent to a Fiat plant for final assembly, This did not hold true for the entire production life of the X1/9. Some time in the mid-1970's Fiat made a marketing decision to push the 128SL instead of the X1/9. This was another poke by Fiat management at the X1/9 and proving again Fiat management never wanted to produce or have anything to do with this Bertone design.

What Fiat management originally wanted to replace the 850 Spider was a FWD two seater, NOT a mid-engine two seater. This is why Fiat from that time promoted the 128SL over the X1/9 and why the FWD Fiat Barchetta
Became the Fiat two seater "sports car".. while Mazda introduced the MX-5, which is the Japanese effort to copy the Lotus Elan for the masses. The market success of the MX-5 proved how WRONG Fiat management was regarding the choice of a FWD two seater.

Ponder for a moment why Fiat never put forth any serious effort to create a racing brand identity for the X1/9? While Dallara used the X1/9 with help from the folks at Bertone to create his technical calling card as the Dallara X1/9. This was the car that got Dallara started in the race car business. One can find reference to it on the current Dallara web page history time line.
https://www.dallara.it/wps/portal/en/about/History#.VdGDfqY-D-Y

In contrast, British Leyland, Nissan (Datusn), Porsche promoted heavily in he USA using SCCA as their racing venue with full factory support for those interested and more. The US market was taken extremely seriously by these brands. This is why there is such a legacy following for these cars in the US to this very day.

In 1979 when the 1500cc version of the X1/9 appeared, it was a result of the Fiat Ritmo-Strada engine and related being federalized for the US market. If the 1500cc oily bits did not get US federalized, the 1500cc engine variant of the X1/9 would not have happened.

Noteworthy was the use of the rear suspension from the Lancia MonteCarlo-Scorpion in the 1500cc X1/9. When production went to a trickle then none- Fiat had to do something with all those rear suspension bits produced for the MontCarlo-Scorpion. This is why the rear suspension on the 1500cc X1/9 is so incredibly stout...as it was originally designed for about 300 hp V6. This is why the rear uprights, CV joints and related rear suspension bits are interchangeable between X1/9 and Lancia MonteCarlo-Scorpion. I'll save the story of this other under-reconized and appreciated and unfinished design maybe at a later time.

After the initial high demand for the 1500cc / 5 speed X1/9 died down, Fiat's interest in the X1/9 dropped significantly. By late 1981, Fiat was mostly out of the US car market. About that time, Fiat tossed the entire production of the X1/9 to Bertone. While Fiat continued to provide Bertone with oily bits and some related parts, that was when the X1/9 became a true Bertone product from start of the body shell to finished car.. even if Fiat continued to provide some bits.

By 1982, Fiat had pulled completely out of the USA car market.

The 1980's also marked the introduction of the Fiat Uno Turbo. Since Fiat decided to pull out of the US car market, the Uno Turbo oily bits never got US Federalization. If it did, there could have been a Uno Turbo variant of the X1/9.

1984, Bertone's X1/9 was marketed in the USA by IAI auto (Malcolm Bricklin) which IMO was one of the worst things to ever happen to the X1/9. This crook believed taking the X1/9 up market would be the answer for profitability and image. Most who know about X1/9 history knew what happened in the years after.

After the break up with IAI and Malcolm Bricklin, Bertone tried to go-it-alone in the US car market with the X1/9. That did not work out so well.

Friends who visited Bertone while the X1/9 was still in production asked the folks at Bertone why the X1/9 never got a more powerful drive train. Answer turned out to be Fiat's resistance to give Bertone access to anything other than the 1500cc / 5 speed. Fiat forced Bertone into a contract to accept a fixed number of engine-gearbox-axle-uprights with zero options. Fiat did not care if Bertone put them into cars or scrapped them, Bertone had to accept this fixed number with no exemptions. Beyond this Fiat had absolutely zero interest in spending any of their engineering and production resources on any redesign of the X1/9. Adding to this, Fiat was out of the US car market, any efforts to Federalize a more modern Fiat engine-gearbox was too expensive and pointless.

Proving again, Fiat was determined to kill off the X1/9 in any way they can.

Given this history of twist and turns... and how Fiat did what it could to kill of the X1/9 since day one.. Is the X1/9 really a Fiat?

Cadillac Allanté - Pininfarina was a very different deal. After Fiat ditched the 124 Spider, Pininfarina wanted access to the US car market beyond Ferrari. A deal with made with GM in a similar idea as the Bertone X1/9 bodies to GM assembly. Except Pininfarina did not assemble complete cars as Bertone did with the X1/9 and Pininfarina never tried to market Allanté independently from GM.

If one were to look at the personalities involved with the design, development and testing of the X1/9, this list consist of some of the very best and talented individuals from that time. Yet, their work on the X1/9 and it's resulting excellent design remains mostly unrecognized for a host of reasons politically and more.

Still think FCA would consider offering OEM x1/9 parts?


Bernice
 
The model was the 128 3p, not the 128SL, and that's anecdotal evidence at best from Longs book on the X19 about Fiat pushing the 3p over the x19... and about said profitability of the 3p in comparison to the x19... my Dad was a dealer at the time, and demand for x19's out stripped supply in Australia at least. The demographic target market for a targa topped sports car and a utilitarian hatchback are simply worlds apart.

Wanting to call all X19's Betones and not Fiats is just like some people thinking their Fiat 500 Abarth isn't a Fiat as the Fiat badging doesn't appear on the car anywhere...and refering to it as an Abarth...it's ELITISM and nothing more. (Go over to the English Fiat Forum and try calling all 500's Fiats and you'll get shouted down by these fools)

It's a FIAT, 100% through and through... did you ever go to a Bertone dealer to buy parts... nope, it was a FIAT dealer. Enough said.

edit: I thought I was the only one who wrote in tomes, but after reading thru it all... nicely said Sandy.

SteveC
 
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Actually in the U.S., one would go to the Bertone dealer for the last few years of sales here...but I am nit picking :)
 
Bricklin had his issues but kept the X living for 5 more years for us so can't be all that bad.
Without him cheerleading there would be no Bertone dealer network in the US & some of us might be on the Fiero forum now..:huh2:
get's love from me :thumbsup:
 
Fiero?????

Greg (in Conn) said:
Bricklin had his issues but kept the X living for 5 more years for us so can't be all that bad.
Without him cheerleading there would be no Bertone dealer network in the US & some of us might be on the Fiero forum now..:huh2:
get's love from me :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Unlikely. MR2 perhaps.

I remember Robert Vick told me at one point that he could upgrade my engine, suspension, and brakes for $5k. I asked him how. He said "by buying you a used MR2". :shock:

Pete
 
Sure.

I remember all too well Pete.It would have changed my life-course for sure.
My 84 X was my first registered car right after I graduated High School.
long story but I bought it new (wth help from my parents) & paid it off over time with many jobs.
31 years later it's still in my garage.
When Bertone started the "upgrades" in 1983 with the 2-tone paint and leather etc. had me hooked.
If the X stayed dead in 1982 for us I'd be on the Fiero forum absolutely if the car held up.. :laugh:
Never cared for the Toyota MR2. Sorry. :)
Btw the Fiero forum has over 26,000 members with 34,000 cars owned on the main page poll.Just sayin'. :)
 
The US car market was very important to Bertone and the X1/9 as this was where most of X1/9 production went. Soon after Fiat exited the USA car market, Bertone went at it alone with IAI.

Bertone had indeed taken full production of the X1/9 since the early 1980's. Here is a page from the US Bertone X1/9 sales brochure illustrating Bertone's ownership and production of the X1/9.

Bertone-1%252520001.jpg


Images from the US Bertone sales brochure illustrating production of the X1/9 in the Bertone Grugliasco facility (now owned by FCA).

Bertone-2003.jpg



Bertone set up an entire dealer network in the US for sales, parts and support for the X1/9. This was how important the X1/9 was to Bertone's survival as a company. The fatal problem for Bertone doing this in the US car market, they were a single product company with no new product in process or the ability to be a complete car company that made all the parts including those oily bits and extensive engineering ability to create a complete design. This is a very similar problem that has clamped Lotus and numerous other speciality car design companies and small car manufactures. In today's world of overly regulated car requirements, designs like the X1/9 are not likely ever going to happened again for all these reasons and more.

A letter from Bertone noting their ownership of Chassis design and their inability to support the X1/9 beyond production.

Bertone%252520Letter.jpg


Still 100% Fiat?

Know the X1/9 was sold in other world markets as a Fiat with no real issues as Fiat was considered an acceptable brand, this was absolutely not true in the US car market and a reality FCA continues to deal with to this day.


As for the 128-3P, that depended on which world market this specific Fiat was sold. In the US car market it was branded 128SL. These are rare today in the US. Note the FIAT 128 Sport L emblem on the rear.
http://www.petrolicious.com/father-s-stories-lead-to-son-s-fiat-restoration


Bernice

fiatfactory said:
The model was the 128 3p, not the 128SL, and that's anecdotal evidence at best from Longs book on the X19 about Fiat pushing the 3p over the x19... and about said profitability of the 3p in comparison to the x19... my Dad was a dealer at the time, and demand for x19's out stripped supply in Australia at least. The demographic target market for a targa topped sports car and a utilitarian hatchback are simply worlds apart.

Wanting to call all X19's Betones and not Fiats is just like some people thinking their Fiat 500 Abarth isn't a Fiat as the Fiat badging doesn't appear on the car anywhere...and refering to it as an Abarth...it's ELITISM and nothing more. (Go over to the English Fiat Forum and try calling all 500's Fiats and you'll get shouted down by these fools)

It's a FIAT, 100% through and through... did you ever go to a Bertone dealer to buy parts... nope, it was a FIAT dealer. Enough said.

edit: I thought I was the only one who wrote in tomes, but after reading thru it all... nicely said Sandy.

SteveC
Click to expand...
 
RJH said:
Just wondering if I go to the parts counter at my Fiat dealership am I able to buy typical X1/9 or Bertone parts there? I do not understand why not? Why can't X owners go to the parts counter at their Fiat dealership just like in the old days?
Click to expand...

Rjh,
I have read the posts on this up to this date. It's interesting the many different viewpoints and responses...

In reality, your local Chrysler "Fiat Studio" CAN already provide Fiat X1/9 parts for you tomorrow. Any of us vendors, if the order is placed early enough in the day, can have what you order at the specified studio by as early as 8 or 8:30 am local time the next day.
Just give the studio parts department the vendor's name you want your stuff to come from (if they don't already have a favorite), and expect to pay for the service.

In reality, I already supply products for Classic Fiat parts to many Studios. The studios know that there is (practically) nothing for the Mexican or Polish (and now Italian) built cars in their showrooms that will fit the classic cars. Good ones are all over customer satisfaction, and have their sources besides Chrysler.

I have to comment about your request that Chrysler stock parts in their system for the Classic Fiats. It's not going to happen. The folks in charge don't want to do it. I know, I have already spoken with them. If your local Fiat Studio asks the "right" person at Chrysler parts about classic parts, I am (at least one of) the businesses they will get sent to.

As a side note I have already spoken with Fiat in Torino on this same matter. There is very little besides nuts and bolts that interchange between the current and classic cars. If it's not in Italy's current price list they will check dealer inventories with dealers that participate in the recall program. Since I am still recognized as a dealer, they do recall parts for me, and I get orders sent every month or two. Got one on it's way as of last Friday!

And I send product back to them every month or two. There seems to be a lot of current interest in 128s and 131s in Italy right now, and Fiat is buying what they need to fill the Italian dealer needs (which is almost nuthin, but it helps me get stuff Americans don't want out the door)...

Thanks for keeping the classic cars on the road!

Chris Obert
 
well.. this has been an interesting thread so far.

One thing that almost no one will deny, the X1/9 is a freaking cool car!
 
funny - the top right photo of that late model US brochure are of early 1300cc bumpered cars with painted steel chin spoilers..
 
Bernice,

that's not a 3p, that's a 128 Sport coupe, also in early production badged as a Sport L (and there are differences between these two models,but that's for another time and anyone who is interested)

you need to know a little about Italian politics in the 70's to understand this...and this is part of the reason why certain models ceased production prematurely namely the 128 sport coupe and the 124 sport coupe in or around august / september 1975.

Fiat were embroiled in political turmoil, Italy was in the grip of trade union strikes, the "red brigade" were running rampant. In a surge of political unrest, production lines were disrupted, tooling and machinery was destroyed at Fiat's Turin operations, and these models ceased to exist. That is known fact.

The 128 3p was born after this happened. The chassis is slightly different to a 128 coupe, and although they share the same front fenders as the coupe, the rest of the body was made from entirely different tooling. I've had enough of both body types apart to have seen the differences. Ask someone who has both models and they can confirm this.

The 124 coupe model line simply ceased to exist. The 124 spyder chassis was built by Pininfarina, who's production facilities (just like Bertones) were not affected by the political turmoil and sabotage that Fiats assembly plant had suffered, and that model also remained in production.

Bertone is a design house and chassis production facilities... I've been to the plant. Back in 1977 they were shipping unfinished bodies by the truckload back to Fiat for final assembly. Just because Fiats production demands changed and they shifted the assembly under contract to Bertone, and when they ceased to sell vehicles in North America to allow the model to continue, did an ill fated deal with a private importer, doesn't all of a sudden make it Bertone's baby. It always was, and always will be a Fiat.

SteveC
 
cliff notes

FIAT X1/9 from: 1972-1982 (11 years)
Bertone X1/9 from: 1983-1989..(7 years) RIP.

Fiat production #'s on the X1/9 estimate to 143,000 produced.
Bertone production #'s on the X1/9 estimate to 13,750-19,000 produced.

In the last 5 years of production Bertone produced 11,413 units.That info was via Bertone.
Very minuscule for sure.

Total produced X1/9s imo is around 165,000.
I'd say majority rules.

Long Live The X1/9!... -Nuccio Bertone :king:
 
All made with Bertone produced bodies and related.


Bernice


Greg (in Conn) said:
FIAT X1/9 from: 1972-1982 (11 years)
Bertone X1/9 from: 1983-1989..(7 years) RIP.

Fiat production #'s on the X1/9 estimate to 143,000 produced.
Bertone production #'s on the X1/9 estimate to 13,750-19,000 produced.

In the last 5 years of production Bertone produced 11,413 units.That info was via Bertone.
Very minuscule for sure.

Total produced X1/9s imo is around 165,000.
I'd say majority rules.

Long Live The X1/9!... -Nuccio Bertone :king:
Click to expand...
 
*Where did the design concept and idea come from for the X1/9 ?

*Who did the majority of the design and development work?


Bernice
 
Rupunzell said:
*Where did the design concept and idea come from for the X1/9 ?
Click to expand...

Well known fact that Fiat were shopping for a replacement for the 850 spyder, and several designers had a go, luckily for all of us, the design from Bertone's styling house was chosen.... but the design would have been funded and paid for by FIAT

Rupunzell said:
*Who did the majority of the design and development work?
Click to expand...

Again well known fact, but the final concept was signed off by the Fiat board, and probably the last say was from Gianni Agnelli...the board had to have a say as the money being spent came from FIAT.

Who paid for the majority of the cost of said design, research and development, and the mechanical components used in the bodywork. FIAT

The technology for the robotic welders and in fact the robots themselves, designed and manufactured by a Fiat subsidiary.The technology developed to paint and corrosion protect the bodies, designed and developed by Fiat... the list goes on and on...

Who owns all the other parts manufacturing facilities that supplied the myriad of parts, all which needed tooling and machinery well beyond Bertones financial capacity.. remembering that plants like Carello is owned by Fiat, Magnetti Marelli is owned by Fiat, Veglia Borletti is owned by Fiat ... so more than likely ...ummm ... the answer is FIAT

If the truth be known (and I certainly don't know for certain) Bertone's production facilities was probably funded or even owned by Fiat. (it certainly is these days since Bertone's financial demise)

SteveC
 
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Aftermarket Vendors

Here at Vick Autosports we get calls from the new dealers almost every day. Some have classic models they are working on and other are simply getting parts for someone that has come in.

Will they ever again carry parts for classic Fiats on their shelves? Highly doubtful as dealerships tend to restock from the parent company and not the aftermarket producers.
 
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