Alfa V6 in my X...
- Thread starter lookforjoe
- Start date
Chris Obert
autocrosser, X driver
Are you aware of any particular replacement drivetrains that don't require major surgery? I've seen one on here somewhere that used Honda parts, I think it was, anyway- BUT I think they had to have custom(600-700buck) axles made - I'd like to keep it low-budget.
I'd like to research viable options that can utilize readily available parts/donor cars that won't cost a fortune; I can do all the fitment/labor, I just need a good place to start
Spending a few bucks to have custom axles made is just part of the project. My X has 160 +/- HP (out of a Fiat SOHC engine) and I twisted the original CV joints off, so I had to make axles that would use components I would not break.
Assuming you are going for more power... Because you can always do a conversion to less HP and possibly get away with not making axles depending upon your powertrain of choice.
A Yugo engine will bolt right in! And those can usually be had cheap.
lookforjoe
True Classic
Sorry, I understand that there will be such expenses, but getting a hybrid axle shouldn't have to be that expensive to accomplish.
Do you have a link to more info on your 160BHP build? Perhaps I'm making this more difficult than it need be. Maybe sticking with a refinement of the existing is enough...
lookforjoe
True Classic
So I can research this option further, specifically what model Honda does this drivetrain come from? I'm assuming it makes sense to get a wrecked donor car, or do people buy the complete drivetrain & then use standalone EMS (I really don't want to go the MS route) ?
abec
Wil
both ways work.
It really depends on if you want a JDM motor or a USDM motor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_B_engine -lists specs and what engine models came in what cars
spiderrey
spiderrey
what did u do, and how much did u have to spend to get 160 hores out of the fiat motor? ive read many posts here about people putting money into thier x motors and getting maybe 100 horses. i really didnt see the point in that.the car would still be fun to drive, but there is so much more to be had. thanx reyy
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
HP is a funny thing, it gets exponentially more expensive as you go up the scale.
Chris O build's his own engines, and I'm sure he spends a lot of TIME getting them right.... if (on the other hand) someone wanted a similar motor and had to pay someone for their time... it (and this is the same for any make or model of engine) would get expensive really quickly.
Chris also has 1600cc's ...(please correct me if I'm wrong Chris) which changes things a little compared to a 1300 or 1500 engine.
The stock US spec engine (1300 or 1500) is a bit of a dog when compared to it's european brother.... simply changing to a more "euro spec" engine will provide a welcome increase in useable power... and the emphasis here is on "useable"
There are many posts on this site that go into the details of the euro engine spec engine and differences to the US spec motors, so I'm not going into them here.
If you also (to the euro specs) apply a few well tried / proven / simple improvements that increase the engines efficiency (and this can be anything that improves the engines breathing / exhausting capabilities) then close to 100 Rear wheel HP isn't a myth, it is definitely achievable, and definitely achievable on a reasonable budget with the original engine.
If however you wanted another 10% RWHP on top of this... you could expect to pay maybe 25% more for the extra ponies... then next 10% will be closer to 50% more again .... that's just how it works.
To compound this extra cost of making the extra HP, you also then get ancillaries that need to be upraded, like clutches, axles, gearboxes and brakes....
Stick with the SOHC, it is truly Lampredi's finest mass production engine. It has the potential for over 100hp/l, which from 8valves and no variable valve timing is not the easiest thing to achieve from most production based engines (especially with carbs)
1600cc can be had easily these days, no need for an unobtainium PBS stroker crank. A stock crank from later 1581cc engines will fit straight into the X19 block, stock 1498 rods and stock production pistons (from a Fiat Tipo with a lower compession height) will give you a 1581 with 9.2:1 CR thats rated at a little over 90hp from the factory... apply the same simple tuning tricks (lift the CR, good valve & seat job / free flowing exhaust etc etc ) and 100+HP at the back wheels makes for a very peppy and torquey X19
SteveC
Chris O build's his own engines, and I'm sure he spends a lot of TIME getting them right.... if (on the other hand) someone wanted a similar motor and had to pay someone for their time... it (and this is the same for any make or model of engine) would get expensive really quickly.
Chris also has 1600cc's ...(please correct me if I'm wrong Chris) which changes things a little compared to a 1300 or 1500 engine.
The stock US spec engine (1300 or 1500) is a bit of a dog when compared to it's european brother.... simply changing to a more "euro spec" engine will provide a welcome increase in useable power... and the emphasis here is on "useable"
There are many posts on this site that go into the details of the euro engine spec engine and differences to the US spec motors, so I'm not going into them here.
If you also (to the euro specs) apply a few well tried / proven / simple improvements that increase the engines efficiency (and this can be anything that improves the engines breathing / exhausting capabilities) then close to 100 Rear wheel HP isn't a myth, it is definitely achievable, and definitely achievable on a reasonable budget with the original engine.
If however you wanted another 10% RWHP on top of this... you could expect to pay maybe 25% more for the extra ponies... then next 10% will be closer to 50% more again .... that's just how it works.
To compound this extra cost of making the extra HP, you also then get ancillaries that need to be upraded, like clutches, axles, gearboxes and brakes....
Stick with the SOHC, it is truly Lampredi's finest mass production engine. It has the potential for over 100hp/l, which from 8valves and no variable valve timing is not the easiest thing to achieve from most production based engines (especially with carbs)
1600cc can be had easily these days, no need for an unobtainium PBS stroker crank. A stock crank from later 1581cc engines will fit straight into the X19 block, stock 1498 rods and stock production pistons (from a Fiat Tipo with a lower compession height) will give you a 1581 with 9.2:1 CR thats rated at a little over 90hp from the factory... apply the same simple tuning tricks (lift the CR, good valve & seat job / free flowing exhaust etc etc ) and 100+HP at the back wheels makes for a very peppy and torquey X19
SteveC
John Allen
True Classic
Easily? maybe in Australia..... Here in the US we didn't get any of these 'common' parts, I wish we did. I would assume that more twincam Tipo engined X's would be running around!
Maybe you can ship a bunch of those parts over here! I don't know what shipping costs would be, but it may make it too expensive for the average US X owner.
Maybe you can ship a bunch of those parts over here! I don't know what shipping costs would be, but it may make it too expensive for the average US X owner.
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
Well actually I had to import the cranks I've used from NZ... as we never had the later models (1987 on) that used the 67.4mm stroke cranks.
I simply found someone who was wrecking a couple of engines via another forum, and bought the whole lot from him, then rather than ship complete engines, got him to post just the cranks to me in Australia....
There is no sea-mail available from NZ to Oz, so they came airmail... from memory the two cranks cost me around $300au landed for the pair, which I thought was very reasonable, and is just a tiny portion of my total engine build cost.
After the cryo treatment, machining and hand finishing they look nothing like the originals, and are worth around $1000 a piece... which some would say is out of the realms of a budget build, but they are now good for 8k+revs ...
For a strong "super-torque" road car engine the additional treatments are not needed, and the extra $$ can get spent on some nice light forged pistons...and there is more than enough power at 7kish to keep most X19 owners with a permanent cheshire cat grin on their face. and still run a stock clutch and gearbox without fear of it blowing up (unless you do lots of drag racing launches)
SteveC
I simply found someone who was wrecking a couple of engines via another forum, and bought the whole lot from him, then rather than ship complete engines, got him to post just the cranks to me in Australia....
There is no sea-mail available from NZ to Oz, so they came airmail... from memory the two cranks cost me around $300au landed for the pair, which I thought was very reasonable, and is just a tiny portion of my total engine build cost.
After the cryo treatment, machining and hand finishing they look nothing like the originals, and are worth around $1000 a piece... which some would say is out of the realms of a budget build, but they are now good for 8k+revs ...
For a strong "super-torque" road car engine the additional treatments are not needed, and the extra $$ can get spent on some nice light forged pistons...and there is more than enough power at 7kish to keep most X19 owners with a permanent cheshire cat grin on their face.
and still run a stock clutch and gearbox without fear of it blowing up (unless you do lots of drag racing launches)SteveC
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
Well I'm not sure what model engine the multipla your driving has .... so I can't comment on the suitability for a whole engine swap ...
I do know that around 2000/2001 Fiat changed their thinking a little to favour the 80.5mm bore in a lot of their passenger vehicles (that used the 128/138 engine as a basis) and increased the stroke... so the 1600 16v went from an 86.4 x 67.4 (1581cc - a 186A designation engine) - which is the same crank as the sohc tipo's etc ) to an 80.5 x 78.4 (1596cc) still with 16v (a 186B designation)
Now these two engines share the same basic architecture like bore spacing, and they share the same crank journal dimensions, so theoretically the 78.4mm stroke crank could be used in an 86.4mm sohc engine and give around 1800cc. :eyepop:
How well this would work in our X19 engine block??? I don't know...but I suspect the rod ratio would be lower than I would like in an 8v, and the piston would need to be very short.
I do know that specialist tuners in Italy (like Gozzoli) make 4340 forged cranks UP to 78mm throw to fit ... but at 2500euro I can't see that being on the shopping list anytime soon ... but it does mean that it will (or more accurately - can be made to) fit...
SteveC
I do know that around 2000/2001 Fiat changed their thinking a little to favour the 80.5mm bore in a lot of their passenger vehicles (that used the 128/138 engine as a basis) and increased the stroke... so the 1600 16v went from an 86.4 x 67.4 (1581cc - a 186A designation engine) - which is the same crank as the sohc tipo's etc ) to an 80.5 x 78.4 (1596cc) still with 16v (a 186B designation)
Now these two engines share the same basic architecture like bore spacing, and they share the same crank journal dimensions, so theoretically the 78.4mm stroke crank could be used in an 86.4mm sohc engine and give around 1800cc. :eyepop:
How well this would work in our X19 engine block??? I don't know...but I suspect the rod ratio would be lower than I would like in an 8v, and the piston would need to be very short.
I do know that specialist tuners in Italy (like Gozzoli) make 4340 forged cranks UP to 78mm throw to fit ... but at 2500euro I can't see that being on the shopping list anytime soon ... but it does mean that it will (or more accurately - can be made to) fit...
SteveC
Fromtheshadow
Daily Driver
Thats funny..
I used to be on Volvospeed religiously, now Kevin Hanks has my old t5r.
I used to be on Volvospeed religiously, now Kevin Hanks has my old t5r.
lookforjoe
True Classic
I've been on here more of late
- still waiting for parts to sort out the tune on my V70 - I'm looking for at least 350WHP :laugh:This is my dilemma as well. I'm on my 3rd X1/9 and the only real fault I have with it is its lousy pwr/lb ratio. Seeing the YouTube clip of "very fast fiat x1/9" gave me hope. I also have a Gen 1 MR2, and one of these cars is screaming for a 200hp V6 transplant, and I would rather do it to the X1/9 as they are very rare on the roads. Trouble is, I know tons more about Ford V-8's than import drivetrains and trying to make sense of all their engine codes and names makes my tiny brain spin. I DO have an '87 Celica GT 5-spd I've been saving for the X1/9 for about 3 years, but that wouldn't be too much of a HP increase; only a reliability increase. And I'm too chickensh*t to mess with turbos.
Surgery is not a problem. I've been a welder/fabricator for over 14 years. what IS the problem is figuring out what 5-spd V6 will fit in back; rear trunk be damned. Legend or Lexus? Go big or go home.
Surgery is not a problem. I've been a welder/fabricator for over 14 years. what IS the problem is figuring out what 5-spd V6 will fit in back; rear trunk be damned. Legend or Lexus? Go big or go home.
spiderrey
spiderrey
My 2 cents. I personally dont think installing a 200 hp v6 in the x is worth the effort. Main reason being that you can install a light weight honda motor in the x without disturbing the weight balance of the car. And you can exceed that h p # with few mods. There are honda websites that can help with the honda facts needed, hondatec.com. The honda motor that will end up in my x more then triples the hp# of the stock x and weighs less.
Flash
Daily Driver
Bernice hit the nail on the head...
...it's ALL been done before. Including the guy that out-FIATed FIAT by taking the 500ci/FWD package from an Eldorado (or it might have been a 455ci Toronado), spinning it 180 degrees, and plunking it down in the back of an X!
OK, maybe this hasn't been done with an X yet:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZU6NTaZ2Ig"]YouTube- F-150 Jet Truck[/ame]
Anything can be made to fit...given enough time, patience and money.
If you need ideas, check these guys out:
http://www.banks-europa.co.uk/cars/engines.htm
Not Exies but in the same spirit...and they're doing some pretty cool stuff.
...it's ALL been done before. Including the guy that out-FIATed FIAT by taking the 500ci/FWD package from an Eldorado (or it might have been a 455ci Toronado), spinning it 180 degrees, and plunking it down in the back of an X!
OK, maybe this hasn't been done with an X yet:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZU6NTaZ2Ig"]YouTube- F-150 Jet Truck[/ame]
Anything can be made to fit...given enough time, patience and money.
If you need ideas, check these guys out:
http://www.banks-europa.co.uk/cars/engines.htm
Not Exies but in the same spirit...and they're doing some pretty cool stuff.
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bikesandcars
True Classic
Coming from a Volkswagen background I would love to swap a VR6 or 20 Valve Turbo into my parts-car X19, which is what I might do after my current project.
How about a 76' with a VR6 or 20valve turbo? I'm leaning towards a 20valve turbo because I can get more power cheaper. Then again, a VR6 Turbo is good for 250+ hp.
I would like to swap a more modern fiat engine in, or anything Italan, but the parts availability and rarity of the engines makes this a non-starter in my opinion.
How about a 76' with a VR6 or 20valve turbo? I'm leaning towards a 20valve turbo because I can get more power cheaper. Then again, a VR6 Turbo is good for 250+ hp.
I would like to swap a more modern fiat engine in, or anything Italan, but the parts availability and rarity of the engines makes this a non-starter in my opinion.