2ZZ-GE Swap With No Cuts-- Discussion

[Santa Barbarian]

Just going to ask on this - being a Volvo guy, T5/M66 would have in many ways been my preferred option. Running a T5 to 9K rpm as I did in my old V70 is a glorious sound. Working in the driveway, I never even bothered trying to fit a Volvo drivetrain. I went K24 because the geometry was already figured out. Do you have any pics of the Volvo trial, or was it based on measurements?

Heh, yeah, a T5 X1/9 would be a raucous delight. But, um, no. My lead mechanic is a big Volvo guy-- and he'd be all over that. But, it wasn't even worth trying to hoist it up there. Those WhiteBlocks are MUCH longer than you'd think they'd be. Even the I-4 flavor (1.9L?) is much, much longer than the 2ZZ. It's WAY, WAY too big.

I neglected to mention that we also tried a 07K (2.5L I-5 VW slug) with the VW 6-speed box. It's "close" but still won't quite clear the frame rails. Which is too bad, because I could live with 160HP in an I-5. I'm fairly sure the 2.0 I4 in that generation would fit; if I wanted to build a 45MPG, 100 HP X1/9? VW would be the answer. But I don't, so we won't.

One nice thing about the 2ZZ if it has to be hybrid mounted to another transaxle from Europe? Toyota (I assume this was weight driven) kindly left a lot of open skirting around the periphery of the lower bell-housing. So, for mocking up an adaptation? You have a lot of latitude to mount fasteners, dowels and studs from the back side. The top two holes are drilled and tapped into the primary block material, but the other location-and-centering positions tend to be open skirted on the back.

 

[dllubin]

Before I put my 1500 in, I took some measurements off my T5R drivetrain and it was not nearly close enough to fit so I did not pursue it.

 

[Santa Barbarian]

Before I put my 1500 in, I took some measurements off my T5R drivetrain and it was not nearly close enough to fit so I did not pursue it.

Yeah, I wish it was even "close"... but it's just not.

I am liking the shortness of the M66 though-- so maybe it factors in somehow.

 

[Bobkat]

How compact is the M66 transmission? I always seek out the C30s for their electric power steering pumps but never looked at the trans. I opted for the Vw 5 speed because the 6 speed was a bit bigger but 40lbs heavier. But always looking for alternatives. No cut would be a nice option. I kind of always assumed I would be cutting and moving to get the NA I5 sound but feel bad that I will be cutting up a very clean X.

 

[lookforjoe]

I have a spare FWD M66 in my garage, I can dig it out & measure the casing.

 

[Santa Barbarian]

I have an M66 in my garage, I can dig it out & measure the casing.

Here's a tape on one of mine.
These were recovered from T5 c30s I think.

I measure the M66 at just under 14".
Here's a NOS F40 (GM/Opel) unit for comparison, beefy-- but only 13" stem-to-stern.

 

[Bobkat]

The 0A4 (KPF) transmission on the 07K is 14.75 inches to the end of the stamped end cover. I am not sure how much can be cleared there by doing a plate cover but the cover 37mm So just under 1.5 inches. Not sure that the hassle of a trans swap is worth it since I was already ready to cut and reinforce the frame. But I love all this info. I had always thought I would love to do a yota swap in something with a silvertop or black top but will start the hunt for a 2ZZ.

 

[Santa Barbarian]

In all honesty, the 2ZZ hunt is a little depressing. I'm used to the LS World where I can buy 300 HP of ultra-reliable 4.8 or 5.3L goodness for under $500 at any scrapyard within 500 miles.

Then you look at 180HP of Toyota Matrix motor and go "Ugh, can it cost that much?"



Thanks for the VW images. In reality, the best way to add 50% to your stock X HP with something that fits is probably the I-4 VW motor from that series that bolts right up to the transaxle in your pic. It just seems like a lot of work to get 115HP out of a VAG AZJ /BDC /BEJ /BER /BEV /BGD /BHP in 2.0 Liters. Those engines were efficient, but very non-inspiring on the HP front.

But, as I sit here, I think your 0A4 (KPF) bolted to a 2ZZ would slip right between the frame rails on an X.


I'm in and out of the shop tonight-- working on an FJ80 Land Cruiser for a family member. He keeps doing his best to kill the damn thing and I somehow keep bringing it back to life.

 

[Bobkat]

What is the length of a 2ZZ from pulley face to trans mount face? And do the up spec 6 speeds have LSD?

I know what you mean about these JDM motors especially the higher spec version. Unless you stumble on them in the junk yards the prices are a bit of a shock. To get a K20 i bought the whole car. The 07Ks seem to be a $500 motor all day long at the yards Which is nice. A VR5 would be nice but those are 4K here.

Here is a scan of the package. The 07K is a surprisingly compact motor considering the 2.5 litres and extra pot. I wish I did a scan of the X1.5 with the trans for comparison, face to face the 07K is only a hair under and inch longer than the 1.5. 465mm to 490mm. roughtly 18.3 inches to 19.3 inches.

 

[Santa Barbarian]

What is the length of a 2ZZ from pulley face to trans mount face? And do the up spec 6 speeds have LSD?

I measure it as 18" from pulley leading edge to the bell-mounting face, m/l.

I'd be speaking out of turn on Toyota options (which is funny because I just spent the evening replacing a Hell Hose (Toyota is known for those surprises) on a Land Cruiser)-- but I think the aftermarket scratches that itch on those gearboxes. If there's any good news? If I read the notes correctly the 5-speed and 6-speed are pretty much interchangeable. Axles, clutches, all of it. It serves to reason that the nose/case on the 5-speed might be a bit smaller, but I can't attest.

 

[Santa Barbarian]

Here is a scan of the package. The 07K is a surprisingly compact motor considering the 2.5 litres and extra pot. I wish I did a scan of the X1.5 with the trans for comparison, face to face the 07K is only a hair under and inch longer than the 1.5. 465mm to 490mm. roughtly 18.3 inches to 19.3 inches.

Heh, yeah, that 07K is very compact. Really short for a 5. As I say, I'm sure any of the 4-cylinders from that era would get it done-- basically lopping 88mm off the 07K length. All of them are pretty underwhelming on power though.

I sometimes think of a VR5-- assuming one ditches that idiotic big intake/cross-flow piece-- but sadly those are pricey and VAG never tooled (to my knowledge) the VR5 or VR6 in alloy. They might someday still-- that motor was supposed to be dead a decade ago, but I think it's STILL used in the big VW CUV thing. It may even remain in some flavor of base Cayenne/Macan-- although I think they went back to a Porsche-centric V6.

 

[Dan Sarandrea (Phila)]

The AUDI scheme on my preferred 4.2L's also has two separate flaps-- actuated by vacuum pods and lever arms that rotate an "axle" that runs the full length of the intake. I assume that what the Audi engineers "forgot" was that the inherent vacuum in the runner/plenum system must draw water, dust, grime, contaminants into the bearing surfaces-- which quickly deteriorate and seize up. It's a great feature, but a terrible real-world design.

My brother's 2017 Ford F150 with the 5L V8 has flaps in the runners, too.......yawn. This is what it looks like when the one of the flap pivot shafts snaps for reasons:

The odd thing was that the shaft pivoted freely and the vac motors worked when vacuum was manually applied. The part that broke off was the part that fitted into the position sensor, resulting in P2006/P2006 codes for the IMRC system.


It uses some pretty hefty vacuum actuators:

 

[Jonohhh]

The AUDI scheme on my preferred 4.2L's also has two separate flaps-- actuated by vacuum pods and lever arms that rotate an "axle" that runs the full length of the intake. I assume that what the Audi engineers "forgot" was that the inherent vacuum in the runner/plenum system must draw water, dust, grime, contaminants into the bearing surfaces-- which quickly deteriorate and seize up. It's a great feature, but a terrible real-world design.

A shame too because it sounds like it's so close to working well.

I guess it's better than some manufacturers fumbles with them, including plastic flaps breaking and running around inside the intake manifold.

As an aside, those 4.2s are lovely. The "one" I really want is the B7 RS4 variation, but it'll be quite a while before I can afford it and its timing system

 

[Jonohhh]

They might someday still-- that motor was supposed to be dead a decade ago, but I think it's STILL used in the big VW CUV thing. It may even remain in some flavor of base Cayenne/Macan-- although I think they went back to a Porsche-centric V6.

Yeah, if I remember right, those "not a Porsche, Porsches" use the Audi V6TT from the S6 and S7. Far better than the four cylinder E63 AMG , I'll give it that.


I know we're horrendously off topic but that's what we do best here.

I'm very interested in this swap. I'm usually pretty hesitant to like any non-italian powertrain in these cars but the 2ZZ does look like a lovely engine. Speaking of five cylinders, I really wish the Fiat Coupe 20VT fit, as that engine has great potential, but I assume it's far too wide so I may as well be dreaming.

 

[My1stCar]

Yeah, if I remember right, those "not a Porsche, Porsches" use the Audi V6TT from the S6 and S7. Far better than the four cylinder E63 AMG , I'll give it that.


I know we're horrendously off topic but that's what we do best here.

I'm very interested in this swap. I'm usually pretty hesitant to like any non-italian powertrain in these cars but the 2ZZ does look like a lovely engine. Speaking of five cylinders, I really wish the Fiat Coupe 20VT fit, as that engine has great potential, but I assume it's far too wide so I may as well be dreaming.

Hi, I just finished fitting a 1.8 16v (entry level inline 4 coupé engine, although the version I got came in a Stilo), and can confirm the 5 cylinder version won't fit. The combination of the 1.8 16v engine and c510 transmission has about 6-8mm clearance everywhere, with the exhaust header requiring modifications to the front frame/firewall and the transmission requiring a serious modification of the left lower suspension arm (see my thread). No mods to any of the suspension pick-up points. There is simply not enough width/room for the additional fifth cylinder.
Best regards, Marc

 

[Santa Barbarian]

My brother's 2017 Ford F150 with the 5L V8 has flaps in the runners, too.......yawn. This is what it looks like when the one of the flap pivot shafts snaps for reasons:
View attachment 67016

The odd thing was that the shaft pivoted freely and the vac motors worked when vacuum was manually applied. The part that broke off was the part that fitted into the position sensor, resulting in P2006/P2006 codes for the IMRC system.


It uses some pretty hefty vacuum actuators:
View attachment 67017

Yeah, strangely "New OLd Stock" (NOS) vacuum pods from AUDI are as hard to come by as OEM 5hp24a transmissions-- unobtainium.

The internal bearing surfaces on the manifold assembly start to bind, and the "fuse" in the system is the weak sauce vacuum pods. Of course, if you get strenuous with 'em? The plastic arms break off and you really ARE screwed. I think somebody tooled (they are gorgeous, if price-y) some CNC milled aluminum arms, then powder coated them. Those? In combination with the Ford Super Duty pods? Probably keeps the flaps moving.

 

[Santa Barbarian]

Hi, I just finished fitting a 1.8 16v (entry level inline 4 coupé engine, although the version I got came in a Stilo), and can confirm the 5 cylinder version won't fit. The combination of the 1.8 16v engine and c510 transmission has about 6-8mm clearance everywhere, with the exhaust header requiring modifications to the front frame/firewall and the transmission requiring a serious modification of the left lower suspension arm (see my thread). No mods to any of the suspension pick-up points. There is simply not enough width/room for the additional fifth cylinder.

Hey Marc, thanks for the confirmation. That seemed about right-- at least the I4 fits in the frame rails (but the 07k misses the mark), which lets you move on to the next challenge in Dungeons and Dragons of worrying about suspension clearance and firewall/trunk issues.

 

[Santa Barbarian]

Yeah, if I remember right, those "not a Porsche, Porsches" use the Audi V6TT from the S6 and S7. Far better than the four cylinder E63 AMG , I'll give it that.


I know we're horrendously off topic but that's what we do best here.

I'm very interested in this swap. I'm usually pretty hesitant to like any non-italian powertrain in these cars but the 2ZZ does look like a lovely engine. Speaking of five cylinders, I really wish the Fiat Coupe 20VT fit, as that engine has great potential, but I assume it's far too wide so I may as well be dreaming.

Yeah, it's just a weird geometry problem-- I almost wonder if a VR5 would fit?
I said this at the start, but will be redundant... it truly wasn't until we got the old drivetrain out that I grasped how uniquely-suited the FIAT uno-cam version was to fit. It's spooky how IT fit in there-- and nothing else does.

I find myself idly wondering if THIS is why everybody ends up at "oh, screw it, and put a Hayabusa in there! Who needs reverse anyway? The first rule in Italian driving is to never worry about what's behind you anyway"

 

[Santa Barbarian]

As an aside, those 4.2s are lovely. The "one" I really want is the B7 RS4 variation, but it'll be quite a while before I can afford it and its timing system

No. No one "really wants" the valvetrain implications of that motor. Face it, the "best" AUDI 4.2 was the initial whack ABZ Engine Code that goes back to the OG AUDI V8 of 1989.

 

[kmead]

Yeah, it's just a weird geometry problem-- I almost wonder if a VR5 would fit?
I said this at the start, but will be redundant... it truly wasn't until we got the old drivetrain out that I grasped how uniquely-suited the FIAT uno-cam version was to fit. It's spooky how IT fit in there-- and nothing else does.

I find myself idly wondering if THIS is why everybody ends up at "oh, screw it, and put a Hayabusa in there! Who needs reverse anyway? The first rule in Italian driving is to never worry about what's behind you anyway"

Either a VR5 or 6 should fit, they are just heavy beasts. They sound great.

My other love to see it fits is the Mazda KL twin cam V6. They sound wicked and there is a 2.0l which was available in the Lantis, put out 200hp (more if you go with the physically identical 2.5kl) and there are 5 and 6 speed transmissions which fit up.

This raises the other problem of front to back space but one could sacrifice some of the trunk (which I would hate to do).

Anywho, drive on. Pics when you start stuffing the 2ZZ-GE in there.