Serpentine Belt / Pulley Conversion?

The pivot bracket on the Alternator I modded 2 years ago cracked - had a rattle at idle that sounded like a loose heat shield & I noticed the alternator vibrating. Removed the alt & rewelded the mount ear & all is well now :) Thank goodness for my TIG welder.
 
I'm worried my Gates idler has crapped itself. There's a loud rev-matching squeal coming from somewhere.

I took it out tonight and it seems okay. If it isn't the idler it may be my 65 amp alternator, which a quick search shows is no longer available.

Which alternator are you using Hussein?
 
rjplenter said:
I'm worried my Gates idler has crapped itself. There's a loud rev-matching squeal coming from somewhere.

I took it out tonight and it seems okay. If it isn't the idler it may be my 65 amp alternator, which a quick search shows is no longer available.

Which alternator are you using Hussein?
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GM 335-1068 - had to modify the casing on mine due to AC...
 
Suggest using-modifying a Denso alternator instead of the GM Delco part. Denso alternators have been installed on the TR3 & TR6 and one on the 74' exxe. These were done years ago, all have been completely problem free.

Denso alternators are small sized, good power to size-weight ratio, proven record of durable-reliable and easily available.


Bernice
 
I will concur with Bernice and say go for Denso... Alfaholics offer an upgrade alternator kit, pretty well priced and had good reviews (for a customer's 105 coupe)...he bought it and when it arrived I thought the alternator looked quite familiar and checked out the part numbers online, a Denso alternator and it's widely used on things like Kubota machinery, and cheap as chips to buy direct... very compact / lightweight and high output...so do a little research.

https://www.alfaholics.com/parts/105-series/electrical/new-65a-alternator/

SteveC
 
I had a Denso (Volvo application) alternator in there previously. The advantage of the GM is the sense wire feature, so the output compensates for whatever heavy load circuit you feed it. Works nicely. Obviously not needed for a track or race car, but great for DD usage.

EDIT - perhaps also not critical for carb setup - EFI / electronic ign needs to maintain correct minimum voltage.
 
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rjplenter said:
I'm worried my Gates idler has crapped itself. There's a loud rev-matching squeal coming from somewhere.

I took it out tonight and it seems okay. If it isn't the idler it may be my 65 amp alternator, which a quick search shows is no longer available.

Which alternator are you using Hussein?
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There is an alternator rebuild shop not too far from you (off C-470 and 44th) if you want to get yours checked out. Used them a number of times, quality work.
 
It's possibly my own fault. My best mate from Oz was visiting and I let him borrow the X the other day. He is an Alfisti, but has very little mechanical sympathy (yeah, I'm a fool!). When he got back he admitted he had wound the tach off scale several times and had driven almost everywhere in 2nd and occasionally in 3rd. He also admitted he had heard an "odd noise"! After taking the alternator out tonight I think it's bearings are a little noisier than I would like. If he revved the engine to 9,000rpm (which I highly suspect) then the alternator would have been spinning at over 16,000rpm, which may be too much for extended periods.

I've already ordered a replacement idler pulley as it would have been doing about 18,000rpm (and has shed some pieces of it's periphery), hopefully I don't also have to replace the alternator!

I'm in for back surgery in a few days so was hoping to use the X as my daily driver until I'm laid up, so I'm pretty PO'd that it is off the road!!!
 
Back in the days when we were doing LeMons racing with the Lampredi SOHC, one of the drivers would bounce the tach off the far end of the RPM scale before shifting.. This went on for hour after hour after hour without engine failure. There are very, very few engines from this era that would have survived this kind of abuse as delivered.

Once the engine RPM goes much over the hp peak (area under the curve), it is completely pointless to continue increasing engine RPM. The risk of causing a part to fail simply increases.

The Bosch alternator did not like it, the coolant pump did not like it but that Lampredi SOHC just kept going and going..

Over speeding the alternator tends to cause everything from bearing failure to cooked slip rings and burnt brushes. Typically much over 10,000 RPM is a lot on any alternator. The coolant pump would not be very happy running at close to this speed either.

Might be best to Remove and Replace this alternator and drive on.


Bernice




rjplenter said:
If he revved the engine to 9,000rpm (which I highly suspect) then the alternator would have been spinning at over 16,000rpm, which may be too much for extended periods.

I've already ordered a replacement idler pulley as it would have been doing about 18,000rpm (and has shed some pieces of it's periphery), hopefully I don't also have to replace the alternator!
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rjplenter said:
... an Alfisti, but has very little mechanical sympathy ... If he revved the engine to 9,000rpm (which I highly suspect) ...
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Gotta watch those alfa guys... they get so jealous when your engine can outrun theirs and it's 400cc smaller.

Next time your in Oz make sure you repay him the favour!

SteveC
 
I finally had a chance to read through this. Good job, lots of time and effort invested, thanks for sharing your work.

Couple of questions for those involved with designing serpentine belt systems for the X:
1) What are the latest developments? Any updates on component selection, or other considerations?

2) To make it a true 'maintenance free' system, was the possibility of a spring-loaded 'tensioner' pulley (something like below) tried instead of an 'idler' pulley? This would allow the AC comp and Alt to be solidly mounted (no adjustment required for them), and belt tension would be constantly maintained by the 'tensioner'.

serpentine_belt_tensioner_components.gif


3) Perhaps one of the X specialist part suppliers is willing to create a 'kit' for something like this? I see potential here.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
I finally had a chance to read through this. Good job, lots of time and effort invested, thanks for sharing your work.

Couple of questions for those involved with designing serpentine belt systems for the X:
1) What are the latest developments? Any updates on component selection, or other considerations?

2) To make it a true 'maintenance free' system, was the possibility of a spring-loaded 'tensioner' pulley (something like below) tried instead of an 'idler' pulley? This would allow the AC comp and Alt to be solidly mounted (no adjustment required for them), and belt tension would be constantly maintained by the 'tensioner'.

3) Perhaps one of the X specialist part suppliers is willing to create a 'kit' for something like this? I see potential here.
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My setup has been fine since I put it together, using the alt pivot to tension the belt. I have only made changes as a result of alternator revisions and changes to water pump pulleys. On an AC car, there is zero room for a automatic tensioner. I have tried an arry of tensioner styles with no success, I wanted to go that route..
The non-AC setup has much more room so an auto-tensioner may work, but it would still require a custom support bracket to retain it.
 
Thanks Hussein, glad to hear it has held up well. I saw that you tried lots of options but just wanted to double check on the 'tensioner' concept...naturally that would be ideal. I especially like that you did this on a AC car.
Frankly there is a limitless number of parts to choose from across all makes / models / years / options / etc. Problem is finding the right pieces with no convenient way of researching specific dimensions.
The guys in the water-cooled VW scene have found combinations of newer VW components to do the same on the early V-belt engines, but they obviously have more to choose from within the family.
Just to summarize from this long thread, for a stock 1500 (with AC) the parts-list in your fist post is the best arrangement found? I know your X is highly modified so I'm a bit unclear how much of what you listed applies to a stock engine's arrangement vs yours.
Thanks
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Thanks Hussein, glad to hear it has held up well. I saw that you tried lots of options but just wanted to double check on the 'tensioner' concept...naturally that would be ideal. I especially like that you did this on a AC car.

Just to summarize from this long thread, for a stock 1500 (with AC) the parts-list in your fist post is the best arrangement found? I know your X is highly modified so I'm a bit unclear how much of what you listed applies to a stock engine's arrangement vs yours.
Thanks
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The list works for stock engine setup. The catch is the custom bracketry needed for the upper idler/tensioner and the AC idler. If someone could CNC those parts, it would straightforward.
 
Dr.Jeff said:
Thanks Hussein, glad to hear it has held up well. I saw that you tried lots of options but just wanted to double check on the 'tensioner' concept...naturally that would be ideal. I especially like that you did this on a AC car.
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Hi Jeff,

I looked at that belt tensioner option, but I had 2 issues. First, even without A/C I had limited space for an idler. Second, I couldn't find any specs on positioning the tensioner so that it applied the correct tension to the belt.

Cheers,

Rob
 
serpentine / multi groove belt style accessory drive would be available from quite a few later Fiats like Punto / Tipo / Uno.. water pumps off the shelf, front crank pulley off the shelf.... for example...

http://www.ebay.it/itm/Pompa-acqua-FIAT-LANCIA-VW-Ruville-65834G-/122601883178

http://www.ebay.it/itm/Puleggia-alb...o-Tempra-1-4-1-6-benzina-145-17-/112263839297

there's even a front pulley that already has a EDIS trigger wheel already machined in from some 16v and 8v variants....

http://www.ebay.it/itm/PULEGGIA-ALB...-98-02-1-6-16V-COD-MOT-182A4000-/252939906611


SteveC
 
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Steve, excellent info!
At the risk of sounding too lazy to do the research....:rolleyes:
Do you happen to know how these later models tensioned the belt? I'm wondering if the brackets, tensioner, etc can also be transferred directly over to the X's 1500 engine. I my other thread about V-belts I explain the frustration with the accessory drive arrangement on a US spec '79 with AC and a ton of pollution control devices. I started removing some of those unwanted devices but still not liking the V-belt layout on it. Great time to ditch it and go serpentine.
Thanks for sharing your vast knowledge as always.
 
fiatfactory said:
serpentine / multi groove belt style accessory drive would be available from quite a few later Fiats like Punto / Tipo / Uno.. water pumps off the shelf, front crank pulley off the shelf.... for example...
SteveC
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The problem here is that none of these models were ever sold in the US. Finding parts schematics that layout the various ancillaries and belt routings, and part numbers to cross reference for possible fitment is therefore a difficulty, and of course there are no actual vehicles around to just look at to get a overview of this. Buying parts for vehicles never sold here can be problematic as there is no way to be certain it will all work until you have the parts on hand, nevermind locating subsequent replacements at reasonable costs.

All in all, I have to say it's easier working with readily available parts that can be sourced from within the US as much as possible.
 
Agreed, that's why I was asking for more details. However it turns out the Australian market also did not have them so we'll have to try and get some illustrations from a European source. My hope is if we can ultimately get some part numbers then maybe the bits can be found online.
 
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