fiat vs K20 engine discussion

My $0.02

The X is underpowered, unreliable, a rust bucket...blah blah blah...

We all heard this a million times before. The big attraction the X has for me is what it's not. It's not a classic, it's not desirable, it's not an automotive icon, it's not meant to be a trailer queen (no disrespect to "The Trailer Queen" :excited:).

It's not meant to be anything more than a joy to the owner. What ever that joy may be. For me the total enjoyment of this, my third X, is to drive it like its stolen, harass every SUV on a twisty road, keep your right foot firmly planted in the carpet and not break every law in the books. If I drove a Corvette (or my Mustang GT for that matter) the way I drive my X, I would be making license plates for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts for a very long time.

I respect the opinions of everybody on this forum and look forward every day to read them. The diversity of the opinions expressed here is a testament to the passion this car generates. For a car with it's pedigree born from one of the great coach makers on the planet to its roots as a car for the common man. I cannot think of any other car I would rather own and mold to represent my "car guy" image.

OK, I'll jump down off the soapbox now, thanks for listening. I've leaving work and my X and I are going to enjoy aggravating a few Honda CRV's this afternoon...:devil:
 
Joe F said:
The X is underpowered, unreliable, a rust bucket...blah blah blah...

We all heard this a million times before. The big attraction the X has for me is what it's not. It's not a classic, it's not desirable, it's not an automotive icon, it's not meant to be a trailer queen (no disrespect to "The Trailer Queen" :excited:).

It's not meant to be anything more than a joy to the owner. What ever that joy may be. For me the total enjoyment of this, my third X, is to drive it like its stolen, harass every SUV on a twisty road, keep your right foot firmly planted in the carpet and not break every law in the books. If I drove a Corvette (or my Mustang GT for that matter) the way I drive my X, I would be making license plates for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts for a very long time.

I respect the opinions of everybody on this forum and look forward every day to read them. The diversity of the opinions expressed here is a testament to the passion this car generates. For a car with it's pedigree born from one of the great coach makers on the planet to its roots as a car for the common man. I cannot think of any other car I would rather own and mold to represent my "car guy" image.

OK, I'll jump down off the soapbox now, thanks for listening. I've leaving work and my X and I are going to enjoy aggravating a few Honda CRV's this afternoon...:devil:
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Rock on ,Joe

I actually own a CRV and hate it! lol
I would rather get in my X and harass some as well PMSL! HA! :drink:
 
Can we agree we just love our x 1/9's whether they have a heart from Japan or from Italy?

I have had some Fiat's in my time and they all have had Fiat engines although not all of them "stock" engines. My soon to be completed k20 swap will be the first non Fiat or Italian engine setup and I can't wait till it is done. Because it will be MY X MODIFIED MY WAY. No one else's. IF I don't like it, that's my problem. If no one else likes it, well - I don't care. :nana:
 
Lots of interesting debate here....

I think the one thing that everyone here can agree on is this...
Honda's B series engines are better than the K series :)
 
I just love my X1/9 the way it is, if I want a faster car, then I should buy a faster car. Leaving the X/9 as original as possible for top dollar when I chews to sell. Just saying.
 
fiatmonkey said:
Can we agree we just love our x 1/9's
Click to expand...

I wanted an X1/9 when I was a kid. It never occurred to me to consider buying one new, since I have never owned a new car, period.

I like to tinker with whatever I own, so when an X1/9 finally came my way, I did what I always do & fitted as many Volvo parts as possible :)

I'm really happy with the current performance level with the 1600 build - however I know that I would have been just as happy if I could have fitted a Volvo T4 engine, transaxle & EMS. The only reason I didn't pursue that lies in the fact that the Volvo gen 1 S40 was never sold with manual trans in the US :sad:

I love the X1/9 for it's character, style & handling, it's really like a overgrown go-kart that makes me smile in every corner & twist of the road. I'm definitely not married to a Fiat based drivetrain.
 
K20 Install: Too Much Slicing & Dicing?

Just saw Tim Hoover's photo album of his in-progress K20 installation.

https://picasaweb.google.com/111057528691987659216/K20a2Install?noredirect=1#

I know Tim is using the Midwest-Bayless Stage 1 kit (engine cradle/subframe + shift gate & linkage + axles).

Assuming that what Tim is doing is typical for a K20 install***, I have to honestly say that I did not know that so much slicing and dicing of the X1/9 chassis is required for installation of the K20 drivetrain. Specifically the huge chunk that has to be carved out of the driver's side "frame rail" for trans clearance and the huge chunk carved out of the forward portion of the engine compartment's "frame rail" for general clearance.

I'm no structural or mechanical engineer, but I do know that with steel, in many cases the shape of the structural member is almost as important for load bearing as the gauge and quantity of the steel. Seems that the classic rectangular box section employed in the original construction of the car is very much sacrificed to gain spot clearance. I can't help but get a gut feeling that the structural integrity is not the same as what came from Bertone.


***This is NOT meant as a knock against Tim's execution of his project....I'm only citing Tim's project because he's got plenty of detailed pix so it's a very handy way to bring up a legitimate question and illustrate a concept.
 
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I took a ride in Jim McKenzie's K20...

And I can honestly say I felt absolutely no twist or insecurity in the frame when he went from zero to 60 in about 5 seconds.
Scarey fast, but felt pretty stable to me. Looking at the inserts, they looked quite heavy duty too. There is a lot of welding/crafting but IMHO the engine bay still looked quite solid from what I've seen.
 
Thanks Bob!

Appreciate the kind words on the car. I have found that the chassis feels tighter than it did before, but a part of that could be the new suspension and wheels/tires too. It's important to remember that my car had a bad cylinder and minor front end damage when it went to Matt for rebirth, so I got back a radically different car than what was sent :)

Tim's photo book is really good and shows the kind of extensive effort needed to make this conversion. Good luck Tim!

Matt Brannon does a really nice job of supplying photos on his work, and here is the photo-journal he did for my car, for comparison to Tim's.

http://s1276.photobucket.com/user/M...cKenzie-X19-K20?sort=3&evt=email_share&page=1
 
I love this, you guys are awesome!!

Hey, I was 16 in 2002, and my first car was a 90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX, AWD turbo 2.0. I've been a forum reader ever since, and this is where my first experience came from specifically.
I've owned and worked on many, many cars since. Rare things and from all around the world. With a great passion for what motorcycle racing technology has done for engine design!

I have a passion for the stock performance design of the Mitsubishi 4G63T engine, a Japanese engine used for a U.S. market car (DSM's), which was still used in the EVO's with great rally history.

I own a Lancia Scorpion and an X19 I planned to make into race cars. My goal was to put the Mitsubishi 4G63T into the Lancia, since it was the bigger car and seemed like the better fit. (after I changed my mind about putting the V6 twin turbo mitsubishi into the Lancia, which I measured and decided yes it could be done)

Lets talk about size/weight for a second though. The 4G63T engine longblock, say a race built longblock without manifolds or turbo, comes in about 275-300lbs.
This could be mated to an AWD trans converted for 'FWD' use, or a FWD trans, and it could go in the rear of an X1/9 or a Lancia (Montecarlo).
I know the drivetran could be a little bigger than a Honda K20 in some areas, but I want to say with some work and commitment It could be shoehorned into even an X engine bay.

What does a stock Fiat SOHC 1.5 engine/transmission combo weight in at? What does the Honda K20 engine/6-speed trans weigh in at?

I want to take a guess, and say the Mitsubishi setup, WITH turbo, could possibly come in at 475lbs.

I think the weight is close enough, even if slightly stiffer rear springs are required, that this could be a totally acceptable race powerplant in an X without destroying the handling/balance of the car.

I have a built 2.3L stroker 4G63t shortblock, with Wiseco pistons and Eagle rods, I have already created for the purpose..

The exorbitant cost, IMO, of the Midwest-bayless K20 mount kit alone pushes me in the direction of wanting to try something new.

(I know, the cost is reasonable when you consider the possible YEARS of dedication required for 1 person to fabricate something new and 1-off, but its the type of do-it-yourself-er I am and so that fact won't sway me)

I'm straight humbled by some of the knowledge I see some of you stating though, it's the only reason I see myself able to try anything. Online support.
 
Dan Sarandrea (Phila) said:
Just saw Tim Hoover's photo album of his in-progress K20 installation.

https://picasaweb.google.com/111057528691987659216/K20a2Install?noredirect=1#

I know Tim is using the Midwest-Bayless Stage 1 kit (engine cradle/subframe + shift gate & linkage + axles).

Assuming that what Tim is doing is typical for a K20 install***, I have to honestly say that I did not know that so much slicing and dicing of the X1/9 chassis is required for installation of the K20 drivetrain. Specifically the huge chunk that has to be carved out of the driver's side "frame rail" for trans clearance and the huge chunk carved out of the forward portion of the engine compartment's "frame rail" for general clearance.

I'm no structural or mechanical engineer, but I do know that with steel, in many cases the shape of the structural member is almost as important for load bearing as the gauge and quantity of the steel. Seems that the classic rectangular box section employed in the original construction of the car is very much sacrificed to gain spot clearance. I can't help but get a gut feeling that the structural integrity is not the same as what came from Bertone.


***This is NOT meant as a knock against Tim's execution of his project....I'm only citing Tim's project because he's got plenty of detailed pix so it's a very handy way to bring up a legitimate question and illustrate a concept.
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Very legitimate concern. I struggled with this some before I started the project as well. I had brought my X up to my brothers shop for his thoughts. He has built and modified MANY race cars in the past. He was a little concerned in a few spots himself but with the right reinforcement and proper metal going back in, it could handle the changes with no major structural problems.

The shape of the metal used to replace the removed metal is very important, critical in some areas more than others. The long frame-rail replacement piece is a slightly heavier gauge and a single piece to ensure rigidity. I also had it bent at a shop to ensure the shape was correct and it maintained it's rigidity.

I made some mistakes; I for example, took out TOO much metal at one section (driver side frame rail as Dan mentions). I was going by Matt's pics carefully (at the time I started this) but later discovered the work Jonathan had done for Jim's car and found the work far more precise. I also seem-welded EVERYTHING I could find and added welded gussets where I had room and where it made sense to. I may add more now that I have the entire drive-train and exhaust together.

Was it ideal to do so much cutting? No but frankly this is nothing compared to other successful engine transplants. If I wanted to go back to a stock engine, well that would pose some problems...:hmm2:

And so you all know, other than a few minor parts fabricated, I have done the entire job in my (tiny) garage. I am sure my tools are crude compared to what Midwest-Bayless shop get's to use on their conversions :(
 
Already measured an X

and the mitsu/plymouth/eagle wont fit in an X the engine+trans is too wide. it isnt just the engine compartment that it missed by. It would hit suspension as well. the measurements were taken from a 94 mitsu measuring from the centerpoint whil ein the car to get the weight balance rignt. that pushed the front of the engine into the suspension area of the X, let alone the frame rail. it DOES fit front to rear. I dont have a lancia so I am not sure if it will fit in there.


Odie
 
autox19 said:
and the mitsu/plymouth/eagle wont fit in an X the engine+trans is too wide. it isnt just the engine compartment that it missed by. It would hit suspension as well. the measurements were taken from a 94 mitsu measuring from the centerpoint whil ein the car to get the weight balance rignt. that pushed the front of the engine into the suspension area of the X, let alone the frame rail. it DOES fit front to rear. I dont have a lancia so I am not sure if it will fit in there.


Odie
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aye,
hats off
 
I see both sides of this issue

With 75 Hp on tap, it's easy to get bested these days. We all have visions of building a feral X1/9, slaying the Goliaths of the world...I do.

I think we can all agree that the two following vehicles are viewed as the 'inspirational ancestors' of what many X1/9 owners are trying to accomplish here, with SOHC mods or K20 retrofits.

imagejpg2.jpg


imagejpg1-3.jpg



For those who believe in keeping their Fiat 'all Fiat', it's really too bad North America didn't get any 'modern' Fiats or Lancias. Between the Bravo, Brava, Marea, Integrale, Tipo and Alfa 75, we would have many retrofit possibilities...check out all those youtube videos. Interestingly, Matt (and one other commercial entity) is working on a Abarth 500 engine conversion. See link below.

http://vid1276.photobucket.com/albu...rth-500-X19/ABARTH500-MOCK-UP_zps09f61131.mp4

Can't wait to see a comparison of the two retrofits.
 
I am pleasantly surprised at just how well the engine fits. Hooverspeed has an abarth engine just sitting in their shop waiting for a project to come along...:headbang:
 
Coupefan said:
For those who believe in keeping their Fiat 'all Fiat', it's really too bad North America didn't get any 'modern' Fiats or Lancias. Between the Bravo, Brava, Marea, Integrale, Tipo and Alfa 75, we would have many retrofit possibilities...
Click to expand...

You guys did actually get the Alfa 75, although it was called a "Milano" for the US market. In any case, not an ideal swap for an X1/9 in my opinion. The Bravo / Brava is a neat fit though, see:

http://turbo124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2836

In any case, the essence of the post is correct: if you guys had access to the full gamut of Fiat engines (and by that I mean Fiat, Alfa and Lancia) then you may be looking at different options.

That said, my pick would be the MultiAir which is available in the new Fiat 500 in the US.

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Milano

Dom,

The Milano was sold in NA with only one engine choice, the V6. We never got any of the 16V fours.
 
dcioccarelli said:
You guys did actually get the Alfa 75, although it was called a "Milano" for the US market. In any case, not an ideal swap for an X1/9 in my opinion. The Bravo / Brava is a neat fit though, see:

http://turbo124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2836

In any case, the essence of the post is correct: if you guys had access to the full gamut of Fiat engines (and by that I mean Fiat, Alfa and Lancia) then you may be looking at different options.

That said, my pick would be the MultiAir which is available in the new Fiat 500 in the US.

Cheers,
Dom.
Click to expand...

US market not mentioned directly is the Lancia Scorpion engine and trani transplant. This has been done with great success a few times. Tom Mulhall did a pretty nice job back in the late 80's of one. Pretty much most of the wrenchers from Fiat America club had a hand in that transplant. It was a very nice car.
 
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