Easy way to tell if I have the Brown wire mod?

Ananda

True Classic
Any tell tale clues whether my car has the Brown wire mod? The person I bought the car from surmised that it would have the mod as it was put together by Chris Obert but I’m not sure how to tell.
Currently trying to figure out why my voltage is as low as it is. Car is in my neighbor’s garage and he is looking at the electrical system. So far found that the alternator brushes are very worn. He is also wondering how the wire from the battery gets to the alternator as well as the wire to the starter.
 
The factory arrangement has the POS battery cable passing thru the steel panel between the passenger compartment and the frunk, diving down into the center tunnel, proceeding along the passenger side of the center tunnel retained by welded-on metal clips, then thru a rubber coated metal plate at the rear of the center tunnel, then connected to a terminal on the starter solenoid. Another smaller gauge wire piggybacks from this same terminal on the starter, goes up and over the cam belt cover, and down to the alternator.
 
The factory arrangement has the POS battery cable passing thru the steel panel between the passenger compartment and the frunk, diving down into the center tunnel, proceeding along the passenger side of the center tunnel retained by welded-on metal clips, then thru a rubber coated metal plate at the rear of the center tunnel, then connected to a terminal on the starter solenoid. Another smaller gauge wire piggybacks from this same terminal on the starter, goes up and over the cam belt cover, and down to the alternator.
Thanks a lot Dan!
 
Indicated voltage and actual voltage are not the same on an X. Unfortunately.

For a variety of reasons the voltmeter will almost always read low. The volt meter reads the voltage from a source that has many other feeds which are relatively high draws. Among them the lights, the wipers etc.

Using a voltmeter across the battery with the engine running will tell you what your actual voltage is, you can turn on the wipers, lights and so on to see if there is actually any drop in voltage at the battery and then have a look at the voltmeter to see the effect on the gauge of those elements running versus the actual charging behavior.

The brown wire mod, if needed, will provide more power to those junctions but will not cure the resistance (carbon, wear on the contacts) that builds up over time in the ignition switch which reduces the voltage actually available to the accessories on the other side of the switch.

The brown wire mod will have added a non factory wire going from the battery (preferably about 10ga) that runs to the supply side of the ignition switch and the other to the multi wire feed to the fuse box. Both require either sistering a wire to an existing wire (the ignition switch) or in some cases redoing all the connections at the junction to then fuse box depending on the damage to the wire there. The additions tend to be pretty obvious.

In regards to you neighbor, be careful. If he is asking basic questions such as wire routing, I am a bit concerned as it is pretty obvious what happens as one can observe (with some difficulty admittedly) the ingress and egress of the wires into the vehicle structure as well as the route the alternator to starter wire follows. There is nothing more dangerous to an X than some well meaning individual with limited knowledge who “fixes” things. My apologies in advance for casting aspersions on your neighbor.

Your car has a Bosch alternator so the brush set is easily replaced. One can change the wire from the alternator to the starter to a larger gauge wire but it isn’t needed unless there is damage to the wire itself, changing it certainly won’t hurt anything if the new wire is properly built.

The late cars, like yours, have significantly better wiring than the earlier cars. Adding another wire to the ignition switch supply and another wire to the junction which feeds the fuse box can improve matters greatly but there are other things which would be even better: relays with their own fused supply of electricity.

There are three projects which will have a much bigger and better effect on the electrical on your car. The first two deal with day to day voltage draws and the last is more about an internmittent use. The first two are to put relays on the wipers and relays on the low beams (your car has a relay on the high beams already), this can be done as a plug and play or by wiring in relays permanently. These mods have been covered many times and if you are interested I would be happy to dredge up those threads for you. The third is to install a starter relay, this takes the starter load off the switch and puts it onto an easily replaced relay.

There is a fourth thing one could do, which is somewhat controversial but one I advocate, is installing a load reduction relay. This relay is installed on the load side of the ignition switch and switches the load from all the when running electrical systems off the ignition switch so that the switch is only carrying the load of turning the relays on and off. This one is a bit more involved to do and a number of forum members have done it.

So why relay these things? To save the switches from the heat that will eventually cause them to fail and to remove the resistance across the switch so that there is a more reliable, higher voltage supply of electricity to those accessories. Thus the lights will be brighter, the wipers will go faster and the starter will always spin and not just click. The other major benefits are that the ignition switch is much less likely to fail, the headlight switch (which is nearly unobtanium) will not see nearly as much load and the wiper switch will be out of the loop (they rarely fail).

Hope that helps.

Karl
 
Easiest way to tell, is your light work and your wipers work.... At the same time :D
They do work together, but not dry
Indicated voltage and actual voltage are not the same on an X. Unfortunately.

For a variety of reasons the voltmeter will almost always read low. The volt meter reads the voltage from a source that has many other feeds which are relatively high draws. Among them the lights, the wipers etc.

Using a voltmeter across the battery with the engine running will tell you what your actual voltage is, you can turn on the wipers, lights and so on to see if there is actually any drop in voltage at the battery and then have a look at the voltmeter to see the effect on the gauge of those elements running versus the actual charging behavior.

The brown wire mod, if needed, will provide more power to those junctions but will not cure the resistance (carbon, wear on the contacts) that builds up over time in the ignition switch which reduces the voltage actually available to the accessories on the other side of the switch.

The brown wire mod will have added a non factory wire going from the battery (preferably about 10ga) that runs to the supply side of the ignition switch and the other to the multi wire feed to the fuse box. Both require either sistering a wire to an existing wire (the ignition switch) or in some cases redoing all the connections at the junction to then fuse box depending on the damage to the wire there. The additions tend to be pretty obvious.

In regards to you neighbor, be careful. If he is asking basic questions such as wire routing, I am a bit concerned as it is pretty obvious what happens as one can observe (with some difficulty admittedly) the ingress and egress of the wires into the vehicle structure as well as the route the alternator to starter wire follows. There is nothing more dangerous to an X than some well meaning individual with limited knowledge who “fixes” things. My apologies in advance for casting aspersions on your neighbor.

Your car has a Bosch alternator so the brush set is easily replaced. One can change the wire from the alternator to the starter to a larger gauge wire but it isn’t needed unless there is damage to the wire itself, changing it certainly won’t hurt anything if the new wire is properly built.

The late cars, like yours, have significantly better wiring than the earlier cars. Adding another wire to the ignition switch supply and another wire to the junction which feeds the fuse box can improve matters greatly but there are other things which would be even better: relays with their own fused supply of electricity.

There are three projects which will have a much bigger and better effect on the electrical on your car. The first two deal with day to day voltage draws and the last is more about an internmittent use. The first two are to put relays on the wipers and relays on the low beams (your car has a relay on the high beams already), this can be done as a plug and play or by wiring in relays permanently. These mods have been covered many times and if you are interested I would be happy to dredge up those threads for you. The third is to install a starter relay, this takes the starter load off the switch and puts it onto an easily replaced relay.

There is a fourth thing one could do, which is somewhat controversial but one I advocate, is installing a load reduction relay. This relay is installed on the load side of the ignition switch and switches the load from all the when running electrical systems off the ignition switch so that the switch is only carrying the load of turning the relays on and off. This one is a bit more involved to do and a number of forum members have done it.

So why relay these things? To save the switches from the heat that will eventually cause them to fail and to remove the resistance across the switch so that there is a more reliable, higher voltage supply of electricity to those accessories. Thus the lights will be brighter, the wipers will go faster and the starter will always spin and not just click. The other major benefits are that the ignition switch is much less likely to fail, the headlight switch (which is nearly unobtanium) will not see nearly as much load and the wiper switch will be out of the loop (they rarely fail).

Hope that helps.

Karl

Karl,
That is an extremely generous offering, it most certainly helps .
I’ll “relay” that information to my neighbor best as I can. We’ll see how far this gets us for now. He did indeed put a voltmeter across the battery and found about 13.9
Even though it has probably been quite a few decades since my neighbor has put his hands on an X, it is at least slightly comforting to know that he was formally trained as both a Fiat and Alfa technician back When our cars were fresh off the boat.
Many thanks.
Cheers!
 
There is a fourth thing one could do, which is somewhat controversial but one I advocate, is installing a load reduction relay. This relay is installed on the load side of the ignition switch and switches the load from all the when running electrical systems off the ignition switch so that the switch is only carrying the load of turning the relays on and off. This one is a bit more involved to do and a number of forum members have done it.

Karl

I hadn't considered this. Very good idea. Any pointers to an example? I guess I should factor this when I do the dash revision.
 
Hi Hussein, this is my ignition relay installation for a late model fuse box.

I had been wracking my brain to remember who had created a version of this, thank you for posting your excellent write up.

Greatly appreciated. Thank you.
 
The only relay I have added so far is the one taking the power load off the key switch. It has made a huge improvement in how the voltage, lights, wipers respond. I still want to relay the lights and wipers, but got other things pulling my time.
 
Indicated voltage and actual voltage are not the same on an X. Unfortunately.

For a variety of reasons the voltmeter will almost always read low. The volt meter reads the voltage from a source that has many other feeds which are relatively high draws. Among them the lights, the wipers etc.

Using a voltmeter across the battery with the engine running will tell you what your actual voltage is, you can turn on the wipers, lights and so on to see if there is actually any drop in voltage at the battery and then have a look at the voltmeter to see the effect on the gauge of those elements running versus the actual charging behavior.

The brown wire mod, if needed, will provide more power to those junctions but will not cure the resistance (carbon, wear on the contacts) that builds up over time in the ignition switch which reduces the voltage actually available to the accessories on the other side of the switch.

The brown wire mod will have added a non factory wire going from the battery (preferably about 10ga) that runs to the supply side of the ignition switch and the other to the multi wire feed to the fuse box. Both require either sistering a wire to an existing wire (the ignition switch) or in some cases redoing all the connections at the junction to then fuse box depending on the damage to the wire there. The additions tend to be pretty obvious.

In regards to you neighbor, be careful. If he is asking basic questions such as wire routing, I am a bit concerned as it is pretty obvious what happens as one can observe (with some difficulty admittedly) the ingress and egress of the wires into the vehicle structure as well as the route the alternator to starter wire follows. There is nothing more dangerous to an X than some well meaning individual with limited knowledge who “fixes” things. My apologies in advance for casting aspersions on your neighbor.

Your car has a Bosch alternator so the brush set is easily replaced. One can change the wire from the alternator to the starter to a larger gauge wire but it isn’t needed unless there is damage to the wire itself, changing it certainly won’t hurt anything if the new wire is properly built.

The late cars, like yours, have significantly better wiring than the earlier cars. Adding another wire to the ignition switch supply and another wire to the junction which feeds the fuse box can improve matters greatly but there are other things which would be even better: relays with their own fused supply of electricity.

There are three projects which will have a much bigger and better effect on the electrical on your car. The first two deal with day to day voltage draws and the last is more about an internmittent use. The first two are to put relays on the wipers and relays on the low beams (your car has a relay on the high beams already), this can be done as a plug and play or by wiring in relays permanently. These mods have been covered many times and if you are interested I would be happy to dredge up those threads for you. The third is to install a starter relay, this takes the starter load off the switch and puts it onto an easily replaced relay.

There is a fourth thing one could do, which is somewhat controversial but one I advocate, is installing a load reduction relay. This relay is installed on the load side of the ignition switch and switches the load from all the when running electrical systems off the ignition switch so that the switch is only carrying the load of turning the relays on and off. This one is a bit more involved to do and a number of forum members have done it.

So why relay these things? To save the switches from the heat that will eventually cause them to fail and to remove the resistance across the switch so that there is a more reliable, higher voltage supply of electricity to those accessories. Thus the lights will be brighter, the wipers will go faster and the starter will always spin and not just click. The other major benefits are that the ignition switch is much less likely to fail, the headlight switch (which is nearly unobtanium) will not see nearly as much load and the wiper switch will be out of the loop (they rarely fail).

Hope that helps.

Karl
Hi Karl. I'm very new to this group so I'm just finding out about the electrical issues of the X. I have an 87 that's electrically unmolested. I have the power issues you describe exactly. You mentioned a link that describes the 4 modifications. Can you please provide that link? I'm anxious to get that started. Maybe I too can run my lights and wipers at the same time. Thank so much. Email if you can cactusjockey@gmail.com. I'd appreciate it
 
We have incredible and capable forum members, all of the attached info is courtesy of various threads I have collected and images I have kept. You can thank a variety of forum members.

I have attached PDFs of threads that are the most pertinent and some excellent how to PDFs created by others.

There are a few different mods that are good to do regardless of the year of your X.

For an 87, this would be the list of electrical mods I would do:

Ignition Switch Load Reduction Relay: This is linked below and is courtesy of RachaelJF (renamed from the above link)
Starter Relay: See another fine how to from RachaelJF
Insertable Wiper Relays: See the PDFs and the images
Low Beam Headlight Relay: The late cars already have a high beam relay so you only need to do the low beams on a late car. RachaelJF also covered this in the attached PDF
Electric Window Relays: I have attached Bob Brown's Window Relay Schematic. I have pics from his original thread on this and will try to make a PDF of them. Additionally, buy a tube of Honda Shin Etsu Grease for the window guides, it will help.

OE Brown Wire Junction Block from MidWestBayless: https://www.midwest-bayless.com/Fia...junction-terminal-bertone-x19-1986-88-oe.aspx

The insertable wiper relay mod is the best way to do this. You can buy two standard relays, either repurpose the connectors from the catalyst distance counter or buy a pair of the connectors at AutoRicambi.

AR also has a kit for 124s which should work with modification on an X: https://autoricambi.us/collections/electrical/products/wiper-relay-kit
Vicks also sells a 124 centric kit which does need mods to work on an X: http://www.vickauto.com/newstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_6_27&products_id=4636
AR connectors: https://autoricambi.us/collections/electrical/products/wire-connectors-6-prong
MidWestBayless connectors: https://www.midwest-bayless.com/Fia...onnector-pair-6-pin-spade-male-female-u8.aspx
If you search for starter relay, you will eventually find a link to a starter relay you can buy: https://uniwerksdesign.com/product/vanagon-hard-start-relay-kit/ this one is the best
http://www.busdepot.com/wr1 This one is cheap
 

Attachments

  • X Late Fuse Box Ignition Load Reduction Relays.pdf
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  • Wiper Relay Mod **Revised Plan D** | XWeb Forums v3.pdf
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  • Wipers Insertable Wiper Relay Mod | XWeb Forums v3.pdf
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  • wiper relaydiagram.jpg
    wiper relaydiagram.jpg
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  • Wiper motor relay. | XWeb Forums v3.pdf
    1.9 MB · Views: 199
  • Wipers Insertable Wiper Relay Mod | Page 2 | XWeb Forums v3.pdf
    1.5 MB · Views: 201
  • Wipers Insertable Wiper Relay Mod | Page 3 | XWeb Forums v3.pdf
    389.3 KB · Views: 215
  • Wipers Part numbers for wiper relay mod | XWeb Forums v3.pdf
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  • X elec window moto rrelays sm.jpg
    X elec window moto rrelays sm.jpg
    66.6 KB · Views: 223
  • D4D27B2A-149F-4C7E-B335-2DBD3F4CC35A.jpeg
    D4D27B2A-149F-4C7E-B335-2DBD3F4CC35A.jpeg
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  • Fitting a Starter Relay.pdf
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The factory arrangement has the POS battery cable passing thru the steel panel between the passenger compartment and the frunk, diving down into the center tunnel, proceeding along the passenger side of the center tunnel retained by welded-on metal clips, then thru a rubber coated metal plate at the rear of the center tunnel, then connected to a terminal on the starter solenoid. Another smaller gauge wire piggybacks from this same terminal on the starter, goes up and over the cam belt cover, and down to the alternator.
What is the largest gauge that can be fished down the tunnel? Has anyone just run cabling under the car?
 
What is the largest gauge that can be fished down the tunnel? Has anyone just run cabling under the car?

If you remove the center console (not a huge job but not a 5 minute job either), remove the shifter (3 securing capscrews and one pivot nut and bolt), the hand brake assembly (4 capscrews), and in the spare tire compartment, the rubber boot/plate that seals the top of the tunnel (3 or 4 small screws), you can reasonably access the existing holes in the tunnel to work inside of the tunnel to replace the existing main starter cable. Even though I did replace this cable on my car with 1/0 cable, this cable is probably the least-undersized-for-the-job-it-has-to-do cable on the car.

I would discourage running an unprotected cable under the car since this is an unfused, always live circuit carrying full battery amperage---the best place for such is not 3 -4 inches from the pavement.
 
You can run a very large cable down the tunnel. I wouldn’t run one down the bottom of the car as it is low and has few places to attach or secret a cable. There is plenty of room to run a sufficient cable down the tunnel, you don’t need to overdo it.

More important is running additional/upgraded able to the fuse block and depending on what else you do to the ignition switch. Personally I would add a distribution block behind the glove box to feed additional relays and take the load off the ignition switch.

I would suggest you perform a few of the upgrades that are in my post above which were created by some of our many members.
 
I will probably do several of the electrical mods. Brakes first, then engine compartment and then electrical.

As far as 1/0 , that seems pretty big upgrade to the factory wiring. For a non racer it almost seems better to relocate the battery to the trunk
 
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What is the largest gauge that can be fished down the tunnel? Has anyone just run cabling under the car?
I found that there is enough room to run another heater hose down the tunnel so I don't think it would be a limitation for any practical size of electric cable. I would not run it under the car with anything short of rigid conduit, and even with that, it still could be a safety issue.
 
I will probably do several of the electrical mods. Brakes first, then engine compartment and then electrical.

As far as 1/0 , that seems pretty big upgrade to the factory wiring. For a non racer it almost seems better to relocate the battery to the trunk
I've never felt a need to upgrade the positive battery cable that connects the battery to the starter, but I suppose there's no reason you couldn't. What I've done is add a second cable from a parts car and use it as the negative, or ground, cable that is connected directly to the block. That way I don't have to rely on the inadequate short negative battery cable the X came with stock to start the car. I still use the braided ground cable that's connected to the transmission though.
I don't recommend that you relocate the battery to the rear of the car, you would be adding weight where you don't want it, not good unless you like a car that oversteers a lot.
 
Thanks, I will get it ordered. What size lug on the starter? Also, I am looking at buying a relay box at the same time. I know there are two for the wiper and two for the lights. Are there any more I should plan on
 
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