Anyone have the polarity for the Bosch Distributor pigtail?

Dallarax19

Builder -Dallara Replica
I need to get the plolarity on the Bosch Electronic distributor pigtail. The wires are green and brown. I am looking for published info or actual measured info. Bob Brown, I hope you have the golden answer on this one.
 
Maybe.

Does this help??
Top side of Ign. coil should be marked "+", yellow goes to "-"
Take note of the Bosch plug... The wires are in the same physical order.
Also, the "polarity" of the green & brown doesn't really matter.

ignitionyq3.jpg
 
Brown wires...

on German cars are brown, so being that this is Bosch, I'd say it's a safe bet brown is ground.
Rolf.
 
Not a safe bet...

Brown in euro sensors is usually indicative of the source feed, so I wouldn't bet on it.
 
Not to gang up on ya, Rolf...

But Bob is indeed correct.

The brown and green wires going to the dizzy are simply leads to a SWITCH or gate... to trigger (turn on and off) a solid state componant in the IECM, which allows the coil to charge and "collapse" at the proper time.

(AFAIK, GREEN is the color of choice when it comes to GROUND leads here in the States and in the electrical and electronics industry as a general norm... but it appears on this car as well as many other "imports"... BLACK is the preferred color. Note also black is the ground lead off the IECM.)

I'm unsure as to the true context of your question... but if I may...

If this were a conventional "Points-type Distributor"... the YELLOW lead coming from the coil would be isolated on one side of the points contact, and the BLACK lead would be on the other. In this manner, with the points closed, the coil would be allowed to charge up with supply voltage by tying the coil to GROUND, and then when the points opened... allow the charged field to collapse and the secondary voltage to discharge through the spark plugs... thus creating a spark.

This IECM operates by using an electronic switch of sorts and the RELUCTOR in the dizzy spinning induces a slight charge in the green and brown wires that the gate senses and then grounds the coil, or removes the ground.

Bottom line... in this case, it makes absolutely NO difference which way the the green and brown wires are connected.

Hope his long-winded explanation helps...
 
Yeah, I have that schematic but...

Not sure if it is important or not - it is really a factor of ignorance question. It is a hall effect trigger and when a coil passes through a magnetic field you get current flow, flowing current creates a potential difference so there is a pos and neg side corresponding to the current flow or voltage. As so I vaguely remember from my way back texts.

My goal is to bypass the Bosch trigger and wire the distributor directly to the MSD box. I am not sure of all the needs of the MSD box but the schematics have the polarity labled, leading me to ASSUME the polarity is important. It could be that it does not really make a difference..........or, it could be that is does. What are your thoughts?
 
Hall effect sensors are polarized

If you're using a hall effect device, you'll have to find out which side of the sense inputs are closest to ground. You'll need to (then) ground that side and use the other side for your pulse input. The hall effect device is powered up separately and has an output that "grounds" a signal.
For this, you'll likely need a pull-up resistor (I'm guessing somewhere between 4.7K ohms and 10K ohms) on the output of the hall-effect device.

I don't know (without looking) about how the Bosch unit will handle this.
I can check it out tonight if someone here hasn't already done it.
 
By the way thanks for the quick replys....

OK, maybe we are on to something. I am ASSUMING the distributor is using a hall effect trigger. This may be root to solve my issue. I can't see how else the system would work. I don't really know how the trigger circuitry works in the ECM(ECU) so looking at the schematic I see a coil and a magnet and there you have it the leap of faith assumption. So what is the real story on the trigger and the pigtail polarity? Switch? Hall Effect Lead? What are your thoughts? Is the charge coming from the trigger box or to the trigger box with respect to the distributor?
 
Now I'm confused...

Are you trying to MODIFY the pickup or REPAIR?

The original (old style) X1/9 dizzy uses points. The later style uses a Bosch unit that detects a low grade "pulse" from the distributor using a magnetic pickup/coil arrangement. There is no "polarity" with this.

If you're changing out a points setup to one of those electronic conversions, you'll not be using the Bosch unit. Those things drive the coil directly. (and yes they use a hall sensor, but with an integrated driver to the coil)

So, what exactly do you have?
 
Neither - eliminating the trigger box

It is a 79 Electronic Distributor from my carbed car that I want to wire directly to the MSD box (bypassing the BOSCH trigger box) but it is a moot point, I called MSD and the MSD-6A (which is what I have) is NG for Bosch Distributors because they are hall effect pickup and not magnetic pickup. If I want to upgrade to the MSD 6AL-2 ($240) I can "hardwire" directly to the MSD box ; it works with Hall Effect pickups. Looks like Megajolt may be the end answer.

I had not mentioned points or upgrades so I am not sure where that entered in but the car is down for the count until I replace the ignition system - sweet! Good discussion and thanks for all the points of info.
 
Don"t waste you're money on a MSD box. I'm working on this tonight as we speak.... If I finish up with time to spare I'll post pics.

The pick up in the dizzy is inductive pickup and generates an A/C signal as all inductive pickups do. So polarity should be irrelevant.

Check this out. http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/gmhei.html

Is there a X-1/9 dizzy that uses a hall effect? I've never seen one.
 
The Bosch dizzy in the 79' and later X is a magnetic_inductive pickup, not hall effect.

Directly wire the two connector wires from the Bosch dizzy to the MSD green/violet magnetic pick up wires and that is it. There is no polarity or phasing involved with these wires.

This is not the first MSD 6* I have installed in an X. When properly installed, they work problem free. A tach adapter might be required for the earlier style tach to function, post 79' tachs might not need the MSD tach adapter.

Once your MSD is installed, remove the Bosch EI box, it's not longer needed. There should be no connections to the Bosch EI box once the MSD is properly installed.

At high RPM's the MSD unit draws a LOT of current, follow their recommended wire sizes in the instruction sheet. Undersized wire and poor connections will cause problems and grief.

It is a 79 Electronic Distributor from my carbed car that I want to wire directly to the MSD box (bypassing the BOSCH trigger box) but it is a moot point, I called MSD and the MSD-6A (which is what I have) is NG for Bosch Distributors because they are hall effect pickup and not magnetic pickup. If I want to upgrade to the MSD 6AL-2 ($240) I can "hardwire" directly to the MSD box ; it works with Hall Effect pickups. Looks like Megajolt may be the end answer.

I had not mentioned points or upgrades so I am not sure where that entered in but the car is down for the count until I replace the ignition system - sweet! Good discussion and thanks for all the points of info.
 
That EI unit was originally made by Fairchild Semiconductor circa late 1970's. These are found in many GM cars and is also used in the Marelli EI box found in late 70's - early 80's FIAT twin cam engine powered cars.

Some where I still have the Fairchild Semiconductor data book for this unit.. It's not the best, but does work and there are a number of improved aftermarket units that are a drop in replacement.

Don"t waste you're money on a MSD box. I'm working on this tonight as we speak.... If I finish up with time to spare I'll post pics.

The pick up in the dizzy is inductive pickup and generates an A/C signal as all inductive pickups do. So polarity should be irrelevant.

Check this out. http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/gmhei.html

Is there a X-1/9 dizzy that uses a hall effect? I've never seen one.
 
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Actually

You're partially correct. The brown and green wires that go to the dizzy do trigger the CD unit and allow the coil to charge and discharge, but there is polarity, and how the magnetic pickup is wired will affect ignition timing.

If polarity is reversed the CD unit will act on the wrong part of the waveform generated by the pickup and igntion timing will be erratic. I scoped this asymetrical wave (shown below) to show this. The mostly vertical spikes are produced when the trigger wheel lines up with the poles, and the downward slope is caused by the time in between the poles(below is a distributor showing trigger wheel and poles(911turbo but concept is the same)). The CD unit acts on the signal when the wheel lines up with the poles. If polarity were to be reversed, the CD unit would act on the time in between the poles or on the downward slope which is not as defined which leads to varying or erratic timing and can be verified with a timing light. If this were a symetrical wave polarity would not mater.
user153.jpg

IMG_1291JPG.jpg

As for wire colors, Italian cars have black for ground, and I believe American cars do as well, don't quote me on this as I haven't worked on a American car in 21 years. I can tell you that the Germans use brown for ground and I can speak pesonally for Porsche,Volkwagen,Audi,BMW, and Mercedes.
When you get to the house wiring though, green is ground and I have seen quite a bit of that as well, as slowly but surely I am rewiring my house and getting rid of all the knob and tube wiring.

Below are two shots from the Ignition circuit current flow diagrams for a 1978 Porsche 911SC (one enlarged for easier reading). N15 is the CD unit,N the coil, and O is the distributor, also the yellow strip on the very bottom of the page is mass ground. If you look at the wiring between the CD unit and the Distributor-terminals 7 and 31d You'll see the brown wire from the distributor goes to Terminal 31d (31 is always a ground). This is what I based my post upon this morning, that and the fact that Bosch is German. Not sure about Euro brown source feed, but you can have brown wires with different color tracers for special grounds.
Rolf.
wiring31.jpg

wiring21.jpg
 
I see more and understand now...

... where you are coming from...

Didn't realize at first you were messing with the MSD system...

Did you see Bernice's post though... It would appear she has a simple solution... but this has gotten way beyond me now.

I'll need to back off and LISTEN for awhile... but am curious as to what you think of Bernice's proposal.
 
That is awesome, Rolf!!!

That's the stuff I like to see!!! The great Garska is sending me info on the polarity from a study he did years ago looking to do the same. He also explained it is a VR pickup as noted in the John Allen post and the MSD folks whay back when said it will work.

As far as wiring it up, I had the MSD for 18yrs now in the car and over the last two years the trigger has been going south, ignition breaks up and finally shuts down at high RPM, it is no skin off of my nose to experiment but with that said I still would like to see if I can get the polarity understood, as stated MSD has is referenced in their schematics. In the end (long term) I think I will change to a megajolt or similar. My spark curve is not optimized so there is still HP avaialble. Good Stuff!
 
Your right Bernice.

I've put many MSD 6AL units in the Porsche 911SC cars as they are a low cost alternative to the factory 6 pin Bosch CD unit which is about $2,200 dollars nowadays.
I was however unsuccessful in putting MSD in my last X (1982). I wired it in, just as you say, eliminating the Bosch unit, had great spark but was never able to get it to trigger the fuel injection. It worked for me with the Porsche's because they use the non triggered CIS fuel injection. I think someone here on X Web said that the Bosch L-Jet fuel injection wanted a particular signal that the MSD wasn't giving.
Rolf.
 
Here is what's happening.

The EI units are edge triggered, either positive or negative slope. Anyone who designs a trigger system that is not edged triggered must have a very, very specific reason for doing so. The input is usually differentiated or the input looks at the rate of change (positive or negative) of the input waveform.

The Bosch trigger unit uses a magnet in the stator (the stamped metal part that is mounted on the advance plate) and the rotor is mounted on the dizzy shaft (or the part that rotates with at cam speed).

The edge of the output pulse occurs as the edge of the rotor crosses the lines of flux in the stator.

Reversing the wires or reversing the direction of rotation will cause the edge of the waveform to occur at the trailing edge of the rotor.

The actual amount of error is small, a few degrees of ignition timing and since this is a fixed error, it nulls out once static timing is set. Above 4,000 RPM when all the mechanical advance is done, it makes even less difference.

Try this experiment since you have a "scope".

These images are taken with a Bosch dizzy used in the X1/9 driven by a cordless drill and a Tektronix 2467 micro channel plate portable O'scope (Yes, it analog and I prefer them for stuff like this)

Here is the same waveform posted, dizzy driven in the same direction as the FIAT engine turns, slope trigger set to positive.

The dizzy trigger coil leads can be reversed or dizzy rotation reversed and the same display will result. This is due to the scopes trigger circuit only responding to a positive going slope, just like the Bosch or MSD or etc electronic ignition unit.
boschdizzytrigout5msslo.jpg


Same waveform enlarged, note the jitter at on the right hand end of the trace, this is due to the speed instability of the cordless drill:
boschdizzytrigout2msslo.jpg


Now we flip the scope trigger slope to negative and we get this:
boschdizzytrigout5msslo.jpg


Same waveform enlarged.
boschdizzytrigout2msslom.jpg


Does it matter what the polarity or phasing of the trigger pick up coil is, yes, But it does change the static timing by a few degrees or the width of the stator/rotor fingers which nulls out once static timing is set.

If there is mis-triggering, the problem is more likely to be in wiring dress or physical location of the magnetic pick up wires. These wires must be run as a parallel pair together and kept away from any other wires that produce large magnetic fields (like power cables or far worst the wires that drive the ignition coil). If this is not done, mis-triggering can and will happen.

Bernice


You're partially correct. The brown and green wires that go to the dizzy do trigger the CD unit and allow the coil to charge and discharge, but there is polarity, and how the magnetic pickup is wired will affect ignition timing.

If polarity is reversed the CD unit will act on the wrong part of the waveform generated by the pickup and igntion timing will be erratic. I scoped this asymetrical wave (shown below) to show this. The mostly vertical spikes are produced when the trigger wheel lines up with the poles, and the downward slope is caused by the time in between the poles(below is a distributor showing trigger wheel and poles(911turbo but concept is the same)). The CD unit acts on the signal when the wheel lines up with the poles. If polarity were to be reversed, the CD unit would act on the time in between the poles or on the downward slope which is not as defined which leads to varying or erratic timing and can be verified with a timing light. If this were a symetrical wave polarity would not mater.
user153.jpg

IMG_1291JPG.jpg
 
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The MSD tach output is a nice 0 to 12_ish volt square wave output. This is not compatible with the Bosch L jetronic RPM input. It is a similar problem with some electronic tachs that does not work with the MSD tach output. These inputs require a high voltage spike found at the input side of the HV ignition coil.

I drew and posted a circuit that should simulate this HV pulse using the MSD tach output. It is possible that the MSD tach adapter might work with the Bosch L jetronic RPM input.

Bernice

I've put many MSD 6AL units in the Porsche 911SC cars as they are a low cost alternative to the factory 6 pin Bosch CD unit which is about $2,200 dollars nowadays.
I was however unsuccessful in putting MSD in my last X (1982). I wired it in, just as you say, eliminating the Bosch unit, had great spark but was never able to get it to trigger the fuel injection. It worked for me with the Porsche's because they use the non triggered CIS fuel injection. I think someone here on X Web said that the Bosch L-Jet fuel injection wanted a particular signal that the MSD wasn't giving.
Rolf.
 
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