how remove starter from 1300cc X1/9?

V

Vido Peran

True Classic
The solenoid on my '74 X1/9 (my daily drive and only auto) doesn't actuate when it's HOT. I'm guessing that the solenoid is becoming sensitive to heat soaking. I'd like to replace the starter/solenoid pair, but since the car is my only transportation and there aren't any good Fiat mechanics left in my area, I'll have to do the job myself, and once I start work on the car, I can't easily run off for last-minute parts or tools. IOW, I have to anticipate minutely what will be needed.

So what has to be removed or replaced in order to replace the starter? How about the lower coolant hose - does it just need pushing aside, or does it need temporary removal? Is anything else in the way? Are there any time-saving tricks for this job?

Vido P.
 
Vido Peran said:
So what has to be removed or replaced in order to replace the starter? How about the lower coolant hose - does it just need pushing aside, or does it need temporary removal? Is anything else in the way? Are there any time-saving tricks for this job?
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The hose just pushes out of the way.

Because you need to get under the car to do this, you need a pair of jack stands to support the car while you're under it (or a pair of ramps, or a friend with a lift).

But as long as you can get under the car safely, this is a really easy job. First, disconnect the ground wire between the battery and the chassis, in the front trunk.
Then there are three bolts through the bell housing into the starter, that hold the starter in. Remove them and pull the starter towards the belt end of the motor to separate it.
Finally, disconnect the wires from the starter (one spade lug on the red wire, one big green and one smaller brown wire under a 10mm nut) and wiggle the thing out of there.

You can take the left rear tire off and work on the three bolts from outside if you want... Might be easier, kinda six of one, half dozen of the other.

You'll need decent 3/8" drive 10, 13, 15 mm sockets, a few extensions, and a 3/8" ratchet... Pretty basic stuff.

You'll also need jack stands or other way of supporting the car while you're under it.
 
You da Man!

Thanks muchly, EricH. :woot: That's all the encouragement I needed. I've started so many projects only to find that I needed another part or tool or magic grease that I didn't have - and the car (my only ride) was partly disassembled, leaving me to put everything back together in order to drive over to pick it up and then to start over again.

Vido P.
 
Hey Vido... where in SoCal are ya?

We have a few other (42 at last count) Xheads in the area loosely unorganized, but passionate... that can lend a hand and some guidance.

I don't recall you logging in before... but that could be me. If this is your first, and it appears it is, then welcome aboard...

The REAL key to this starter removal is as Eric said, and I just want to re-emphasize... that you DROP the starter first, then remove the wiring. O most other cars you would do just the opposite. You can also remove the three starter bolt from the top by reaching down the left side with a 13mm socket and about a 6 inch extension and FEEL for the three bolts and remove them.

BUT... I digress... BEFORE you do any of this... go the the LR of the car just behind the LR wheel and find the GROUND STRAP between the chassis and the trans. REMOVE IT, sand down or wire brush the strap and where it mounts and re-torque. This solves about 85% of all starter problems.

Secondly, if that doesn't do it, then pull the starter and usually the RED wire falls off its terminal... a re-crimp and reinstall solves the other 14%. BUT, while ya got the starter out... bench test it in the FRONT TRUNK using some jumpers and the battery and insure both the solenoid and starter both function properly. There is an easy rebuild/refresh process as well... but that'll take a while here...

Call between 9 and 9 if you feel I can be of further help... 661-296-7277
 
Black-Tooth said:
We have a few other (42 at last count) Xheads in the area loosely unorganized, but passionate... that can lend a hand and some guidance.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't call myself an X1/9 enthusiast, just an appreciator of taut handling and mid-engines, and my X1/9 has been my daily (and only) drive for 37 years. And I do miss my old mechanic who decided that if he was to have a back ache for the rest of his career, it might as well be from working on Ferraris. :) So, for the past 20 years, I've gone through several pathetic idiots who call themselves "Fiat mechanics". My last mechanic (who was so-so) went out of business with the downturn in the economy, and I've been dependent on Merkel Weiss of the Southern California Rear Engine Fiat Club for advice and maintenance pointers.

I don't recall you logging in before... but that could be me. If this is your first, and it appears it is, then welcome aboard...
Click to expand...
Thanks! I came upon this forum during a Google search, and I registered within the past 24 hours, I thnk.

The REAL key to this starter removal is as Eric said, and I just want to re-emphasize... that you DROP the starter first, then remove the wiring. On most other cars you would do just the opposite. You can also remove the three starter bolt from the top by reaching down the left side with a 13mm socket and about a 6 inch extension and FEEL for the three bolts and remove them.

BUT... I digress... BEFORE you do any of this... go the the LR of the car just behind the LR wheel and find the GROUND STRAP between the chassis and the trans. REMOVE IT, sand down or wire brush the strap and where it mounts and re-torque. This solves about 85% of all starter problems.

Secondly, if that doesn't do it, then pull the starter and usually the RED wire falls off its terminal... a re-crimp and reinstall solves the other 14%. BUT, while ya got the starter out... bench test it in the FRONT TRUNK using some jumpers and the battery and insure both the solenoid and starter both function properly. There is an easy rebuild/refresh process as well... but that'll take a while here...

Call between 9 and 9 if you feel I can be of further help... 661-296-7277
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tips. Just knowing which sockets to use helps me, plus knowing that I can do something useful from the top - although I do have ramps for the rear wheels and a jack and tripod stands for the front, and I have spent a lot of time lying on my back under the car. I live near Westchester and LAX, a wee bit from you in distance - and in temperature right now, too. (I drove out to Redlands last week and about fried in my car.) But it's good to know that there are people around who are wrestling with the same problems. I'll keep your phone number handy... :)

Vido P.
 
Ensure a good power supply first...

Vido Peran said:
The solenoid on my '74 X1/9 (my daily drive and only auto) doesn't actuate when it's HOT.
Click to expand...

I had exactly the same issue and fixed it by adding a booster relay to ensure that the solenoid gets as much power as it can. There is information about this elsewhere (search for "hard start relay").

Also, as mentioned, ensure that your ground strap is in good condition.

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Vido Peran said:
I wouldn't call myself an X1/9 enthusiast, just an appreciator of taut handling and mid-engines, and my X1/9 has been my daily (and only) drive for 37 years.
Click to expand...

huh - not only you an enthusiast, you have out-enthused the rest of us :woot::dance:

There's a thread on single-owner cars somewhere back in the Discussion Forum... :)
 
dcioccarelli said:
I had exactly the same issue and fixed it by adding a booster relay to ensure that the solenoid gets as much power as it can... ...ensure that your ground strap is in good condition.
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Those are exactly what I'd do if I had the time, but...
1) The solenoid is definitely going because the problem is heat-related, and
2) I'll be doing some long distance high speed driving through California's low desert regions starting in a couple weeks, and I just hate it when I have to sit on hot level ground for 2 hours or more waiting for the solenoid to cool down after stopping for gas. The last time that happened, I luckily had a nylon rope, and I talked another customer with a pickup truck to pull me 50 yds uphill so I could bump-start the car. :help:

Vido P.
 
EricH said:
huh - not only you an enthusiast, you have out-enthused the rest of us :woot::dance:
There's a thread on single-owner cars somewhere back in the Discussion Forum... :)
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Although I bought the car in 1974 (it was manufactured in Dec 1973 as a '74), it was 3 months old when I bought it. X1/9s were back-ordered for 5 months then, and the dealers were charging premium prices. So when I found one for sale by a retired banker who said he was having trouble getting in and out of it, I jumped on it, saving myself $1K. As part of the deal, it came with the Bertone Cromodora wheels, too.

I've lusted for a Lotus Elise to replace it, but then I tried getting in and out of an Elise a year ago. I couldn't help remembering the retired banker and knowing then how he felt. :laugh:

Vido P.
 
Yup, that's the kind of stuff I'd normally do. I've already replaced the plastic Molex-style ignition connector that's next to the steering column with a metal shelled connector that has huge flat spade contacts that will take all the current without heating up and melting plastic like the stock item. I've also replaced the ignition relay in the glove compartment with a newer design item. But right now I don't have the time to do the planning involved in finding a suitable place to put a "mother-of-all-relays". I hope that the new gear reduction starter that I bought will be the long term solution.

Vido P.
 
Vido Peran said:
I've also replaced the ignition relay in the glove compartment with a newer design item.
Click to expand...

That relay is something of a '74-ism I think - it doesn't appear on my '75 wiring diagram (the '75 used a different seat belt interlock) and I have no recollection of it on the '78 I drove many years ago.

The relay also doesn't do anything to improve the power to the starter, because it just switches off the output from the ignition switch when the seat belt interlock thingie doesn't want to allow the car to start.

So there's an easy and effective mod that you can make... The orange wire from the ignition switch goes to both the coil and the controlled terminals of the relay. Disconnect that wire from the controlled terminal, run a new wire direct from the battery to the controlled terminal... and now when you turn the ignition switch, it activates the relay to send power straight from the battery to the solenoid.
 
Hey Vito, I am in Hermosa Beach, and I would be glad to lend a hand if you need it on a weekend day...

KFD
 
I am angry, angry about after-market parts that don't always fit. I'm not assigning blame, yet, mind you. But I am pissed.

I spend 8 hours working on the '74 X1/9 today. First, I removed the old starter. That was very difficult because the last mechanic that put in the remanned unit apparently used all his strength to tighten the bolts, and it wasn't until I gave up on sockets and said "Screw the hoses!" and put a wrench right where there was a hose was I able to loosen the middle bolt. Then I coaxed the starter through the thicket of cables and wires until it was half hangeing out, and then I disconnected the 3 electrical wires, including the cable from the battery. Then I removed the sucker.

Then I coaxed the IMI starter up through the thicket of wires and cables and connected the clip terminal with the red wire to the spade terminal on the solenoid. Then I pushed the starter over against the bell housing, but it stubbornly didn't want to fit against the housing flange. Grmmph, grumph, groan, *uck! It was like there was a rubber ball that I was trying to compress. I felt all around the starter, and the only conflict I could find was between a gray boot for a cable that connects the solenoid to the starter motor. More grunting and coaxing with the 3 mounting bolts (starting the bolts was a *real* challenge) finally got the IMI starter tightly up against the bell housing. I then connected the battery cable and the "marone" cable to the copper post on the starter and tightened the nut. I re-connected the battery and hit the ignition. A loud "clack" was heard, but that's all. No whir or other motor noise. I checked the battery voltage before and during starter energizing - 13 volts before, 7 volts during.

I unmounted the IMI starter, letting it rest against the engine block but with the pinion gear free, and I energized the starter again. 13 volts before, 12.5 volts during, and the starter moter whirred. I tried cleaning and tightening the cables at the battery, on the bulkhead, at the grounding strap and then remounted the IMI starter. Just a loud "clack" of metal against metal.

I called Allison's and IMI many times during this farce. No one that I spoke with, including Vicks, can remember ever installing an IMI starter in a 1300cc engine! 1500cc - yes - but not a 1300cc. I gave IMI the info engraved on the old starter, and they said that their model IMI-158 matched the dimensions of that starter. Allison's called IMI and then told me that IMI didn't say that they had ever actually tried their 158 starter on a real 1300cc engine, but that they went by the manufacturer's specifications and that the fit was an interference fit.

Since then I've charging up my battery to 14 volts and then adding a jumpered battery in another car, and tried to start my car. Just a loud "clackl". It's as if the pinion gear were hitting the side of the flywheel instead of engaging the teeth on the flywheel.

Well, the owner of Allison's is concerned, and he has offered to install the IMI starter for free if I can bring my car to his shop in Upland - 56 miles away - and to do so, I'll have to re-install the old starter to drive out there. So that's what I'll have to do. I'm still not sure what the problem is, but like I said, I'm pissed, and things like this have always happened for me with after-market parts.

Vido P.
 
Thanks for the tip. I'll think about it when I have more time. Right now I'm trying to make my new IMI starter work so I can drive out to Redlands this weekend. (But I have a feeling I'll be renting a car this weekend.)

Vido P.
 
KFD said:
Hey Vito, I am in Hermosa Beach, and I would be glad to lend a hand if you need it on a weekend day...

KFD
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That's very generous of you. I'll keep that in mind. But more frequently than not, it's a kind of Catch-22: To get to you, my car has to be working.:) And... I'm going to be out of town for the rest of the year starting in a couple weeks. I'll stay in touch via this forum, though. Thanks, again.

Vido P.
 
Ya know... I didn't read you whole post...

But 1300' and 1500s have different flywheels... so I imagine they have a different tooth count... and we always have said before when swapping transmissions ya gotta match the flywheels to the starters.

I'm betting this IMI starter will only work on a 1500 unless the drive gear is changed out.

I wish you only the best... give Mr. Allison my regards also...
 
Who needs a starter?

Vido Peran said:
Well, the owner of Allison's is concerned, and he has offered to install the IMI starter for free if I can bring my car to his shop in Upland - 56 miles away - and to do so, I'll have to re-install the old starter to drive out there.
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Nah, you don't need a starter (unless the current one is fully engaged). You just need a passenger! Or always park on a hill...

Cheers,
Dom.
 
IMI-158 is for 4-speed trannies

The IMI-158 gear reduction starter is meant for the 4-speed transmissions that came with the 1300cc engine. It isn't meant for the 5-speed transmissions on the 1500cc engines. I suspect that the problem is with IMI believing that factory specs for a car will still be valid after it has been in the field for 37 years. But I haven't yet drawn any conclusions.

Vido P.
 
dcioccarelli said:
Nah, you don't need a starter (unless the current one is fully engaged). You just need a passenger! Or always park on a hill...
Click to expand...
Parking on hills is what I've done in the past. When I drove out to Upland last week to pick up the IMI starter, I was deathly afraid of stalling the engine at a light, and I slipped the clutch at every take-off, making the cars behind me honk. And then, of course, after I parked on a slope, shut down, and bought the starter, the car started right up.:hmm:

Vido P.
 
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