Bertone article R &T
- Thread starter Vincenzo7
- Start date
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
Most may not realize one of the prime source of income for Bertone was production of the x1/9.
It was their product, their source of stable income for Bertone even during during the worst of times (early 1908's as an example).
It is really sad as it appears the motor car world has decided that design organizations like Bertone is not longer needed and the big major car brands can do it all under their roof... which has IMO resulted in some of the most eye sore and ergonomic disasters to have ever been produced in modern times.
It is worth noting that R&T put the X1/9 in as one of Bertone's most significant designs.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/automotive-design/photos-10-best-cars-designed-by-bertone#slide-9
Still, to this day, the moto world still refuses to take the design and value of the X1/9 seriously, recognize it as one of the most significant mid-engine car designs put into production and continue to tar it as un-reliable, poorly put together, cheap rusty heap that is under powered, aka why bother.
Bernice
It was their product, their source of stable income for Bertone even during during the worst of times (early 1908's as an example).
It is really sad as it appears the motor car world has decided that design organizations like Bertone is not longer needed and the big major car brands can do it all under their roof... which has IMO resulted in some of the most eye sore and ergonomic disasters to have ever been produced in modern times.
It is worth noting that R&T put the X1/9 in as one of Bertone's most significant designs.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/automotive-design/photos-10-best-cars-designed-by-bertone#slide-9
Still, to this day, the moto world still refuses to take the design and value of the X1/9 seriously, recognize it as one of the most significant mid-engine car designs put into production and continue to tar it as un-reliable, poorly put together, cheap rusty heap that is under powered, aka why bother.
Bernice
htfx19
Herzel Frenkel
My 2c
Since we are talking about opinions...
All modern production cars are designed to meet two objective - the lowest common denominator and staying on the main road.
You hardly see style innovations any more and you have to look closely at the insignia to make out the maker.
The technical advances are worthy of better and more innovative styling.
But of course, all the above is only my opinion.
Since we are talking about opinions...
All modern production cars are designed to meet two objective - the lowest common denominator and staying on the main road.
You hardly see style innovations any more and you have to look closely at the insignia to make out the maker.
The technical advances are worthy of better and more innovative styling.
But of course, all the above is only my opinion.
rjplenter
True Classic
My two cents
I have an opinion too Herzel and it's very similar to yours.
I see so many manufacturers all doing there own thing on the mechanical side and yet stylistically I see many amorphous blobs. It seems to me things have turned upside down.
Remember back to when manufacturers shared floor pans and drivetrains but put there own bodies on them. For me the classic example was the V6 engine that was shared by Volvo, Peugeot and maybe Renault. In concept a good idea, centralized engine manufacturing that must have reduced overheads. But each of those makers had/have very different styles.
There is a sort thing like that here in the States, but you have to strain your eyes for details to tell if it's a GMC, Chevy, Lincoln, Ford, blah, blah, blah. I honestly don't know why all those sub-brands are maintained. To satisfy the traditional buyer perhaps? "My granddad had a Pontiac, my dad had a Pontiac and I'm gunna have one too!" Of, course, I think Pontiac did die, so maybe not the best example...
I have an opinion too Herzel and it's very similar to yours.
I see so many manufacturers all doing there own thing on the mechanical side and yet stylistically I see many amorphous blobs. It seems to me things have turned upside down.
Remember back to when manufacturers shared floor pans and drivetrains but put there own bodies on them. For me the classic example was the V6 engine that was shared by Volvo, Peugeot and maybe Renault. In concept a good idea, centralized engine manufacturing that must have reduced overheads. But each of those makers had/have very different styles.
There is a sort thing like that here in the States, but you have to strain your eyes for details to tell if it's a GMC, Chevy, Lincoln, Ford, blah, blah, blah. I honestly don't know why all those sub-brands are maintained. To satisfy the traditional buyer perhaps? "My granddad had a Pontiac, my dad had a Pontiac and I'm gunna have one too!" Of, course, I think Pontiac did die, so maybe not the best example...
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
Geez Bernice... Early 1908's! And I thought I was old!
HA!
HA!
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
Geez Bernice... Early 1908's! And I thought I was old!
HA!
Hey... while I have your attention... Do you know of a source for the rear control arm ball joints and bushings? Post or PM me... Thanks!
HA!
Hey... while I have your attention... Do you know of a source for the rear control arm ball joints and bushings? Post or PM me... Thanks!
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
1980's...
Check with the usual suppliers. Rear ball joints are available, trying to replace them can be "interesting" earlier ones require drilling out the rivets. Most later ones are riveted and welded in place.
Rear bushings are available from the usual suppliers and there are urethane ones too.
Bernice
Check with the usual suppliers. Rear ball joints are available, trying to replace them can be "interesting" earlier ones require drilling out the rivets. Most later ones are riveted and welded in place.
Rear bushings are available from the usual suppliers and there are urethane ones too.
Bernice
Rupunzell
Bernice Loui
The vast majority of motor cars designed and built today are a commodity specifically designed to meet these requirements.
Proof and definition of a mature consumer product.
Most motorist want a vehicle that simply works and meets their needs and idea/belief of what is best for them. The manufactures respond by pandering to these consumer desires by producing vehicles that are designed and produced to meet this. For investors looking for return on investment, it is all about moving product and strictly economically driven. The design and engineering folks are there to serve these requirements, not to "do their own thing." These and more are the reasons why the modern motor car and many products today have become what they are..
Worthy of mention, consumer products need to have a specific service life before they are no longer serviceable and must be recycled or disposed of. If the item simply lasted too long, repeat customers will be limited thus limiting profits and growth.
Where one does find true originality and innovation are in budding technologies and industries where much of what is being done is new and never tried before.
Bernice
Proof and definition of a mature consumer product.
Most motorist want a vehicle that simply works and meets their needs and idea/belief of what is best for them. The manufactures respond by pandering to these consumer desires by producing vehicles that are designed and produced to meet this. For investors looking for return on investment, it is all about moving product and strictly economically driven. The design and engineering folks are there to serve these requirements, not to "do their own thing." These and more are the reasons why the modern motor car and many products today have become what they are..
Worthy of mention, consumer products need to have a specific service life before they are no longer serviceable and must be recycled or disposed of. If the item simply lasted too long, repeat customers will be limited thus limiting profits and growth.
Where one does find true originality and innovation are in budding technologies and industries where much of what is being done is new and never tried before.
Bernice
htfx19
Herzel Frenkel
that's a real pain in the balls...
I did replace the rear control arm ball joint on the late GreenX, but I've owned and operated my machine shop then.
I've actually reworked the female portion, but that it a different story.
I believe there was a company in Australia selling these for an arm and a leg.
You may want to consider: If you replace the whole ball joint - ball and socket, may be a non X can be worked in.
Good luck,
I did replace the rear control arm ball joint on the late GreenX, but I've owned and operated my machine shop then.
I've actually reworked the female portion, but that it a different story.
I believe there was a company in Australia selling these for an arm and a leg.
You may want to consider: If you replace the whole ball joint - ball and socket, may be a non X can be worked in.
Good luck,
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
Found this while searching for ball joints...
KYB Struts at about $65 bucks apiece... 10 dollars shipping...
https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/catalog.php
And the ONLY rear control arm ball joint I could find were at Midwest Bayless, used, but with a lifetime guarantee. They have left and right for about $400 for the pair.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/301349424519?item=301349424519&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466
I haven't been able to find any suitable replacement ball joint anywhere. If you have any of the particulars and specs we MAY be able to make and adapter and then bolt a "universal" ball joint to it.
If you have some insight or the links Bernice, I'm sure we would all appreciate it. Thanks...
KYB Struts at about $65 bucks apiece... 10 dollars shipping...
https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/catalog.php
And the ONLY rear control arm ball joint I could find were at Midwest Bayless, used, but with a lifetime guarantee. They have left and right for about $400 for the pair.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/301349424519?item=301349424519&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466
I haven't been able to find any suitable replacement ball joint anywhere. If you have any of the particulars and specs we MAY be able to make and adapter and then bolt a "universal" ball joint to it.
If you have some insight or the links Bernice, I'm sure we would all appreciate it. Thanks...
Tiff
It is NOT a TR7.
Ball joints
Avaliable here:
http://montehospital.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=262
http://montehospital.net/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=261
bushing:
http://shop.x19spares.co.uk/fiat-x19-polyurethane-suspension-swing-arm-bush-set-100-p.asp
Used complete arms:
http://shop.x19spares.co.uk/genuine-fiat-x19-wishbone-arm-265-p.asp
NEW complete arm:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-OEM-F...m-N-S-4395946-Lancia-Montecarlo-/300733038803
Not cheap though-
zonker
Just Another FIAT Freak
Well said, Bernice.
It reminds me of a quote I once read and have repeated many times over my lifetime. "A horse designed by a commitee is a camel".
Have you noticed that most all new cars when compared to older models are taller from the door sills to the window base?
The reason for that is most cars now, through economies of scale require platform sharing at a much higher level than before.
Demand for crossovers/suv's vs. sedans/coupes means that the firewall and "A" pillar dimensions must be similar between the two styles, making the sedan styling more SUV like, and the SUV styling more car like.
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
Indeed, $685 for a pair of NEW ball joints...
$714 bucks for a NEW arm... $215 bucks for a used one, all shipped from the U.K.
$714 bucks for a NEW arm... $215 bucks for a used one, all shipped from the U.K.