Just an FYI on Wilwood Brake Kits...

Black-Tooth

Tony Natoli
First off, I believe the STOCK FIAT brakes that are in good working order are more than adequate for our X1/9s, unless you are doing some lengthy road racing.

Mark Allison released his version of adapting a WIlwood 4 piston Caliper and larger rotor just recently, as well as Matt Brannon has his WHOA Kits, both are for the front ends only.

For giggles... I looked up what Wilwood sells their upgraded kits for a 2013 FIAT 500 and I've posted then here for your perusal.

ALL KITS require a 15 inch or larger wheel, Wilwood's, Matt's, or Mark's.

http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitAdvisor.aspx?year=2013&make=Fiat&model=500&option=Abarth

Click on each to get more details and price...

Sooooo... just to compare...

To note:

1. These are 6 piston fronts, 1 pistons float-type for the rears.

2. Prices through a dealer should be less, Wilwood parts are available from the BIG discount houses like Summit and Jegs, etc... but ya gotta know the type and style you want.

3. The adapters necessary to install them on an X1/9 are not available other than making them yourself or purchasing them from Mark or Matt.

4. What struck me kinda funny was that Wilwood does not list any for 2014 and 2015 model 500s! This simply might be an oversight on their internet page... hopefully. Just kinda odd though...

5. The prices charged by our resident venders are actually pretty darn good!

Enjoy...
 
I have been driving my X19 electric conversion for over fifteen years. It is about 200lbs over stock curb weight with no regen or engine compression to aid in slowing and stopping on the many hills in this area and the stock brakes have worked satisfactorily all these years. I still toy with the idea of a brake upgrade although I have always been leery of messing with brakes on cars that I am driving on the streets. The 10K$ for something you will have to modify or purchase extra parts for is a bit of a deterrent also. With that said they do look cool though.
 
One of the rules of competition...

...is to run with the smallest and lightest brakes that will do the job. And that can mean changing brakes according to the event.

For instance, the most we ever ran on our rally X were Uno Turbo front brakes with 124 rear calipers. But if an event had lot's of long straights and few corners (like a South Australian rally) then standard brakes with good pads were appropriate. Another rule; brakes are the enemy of speed...

Why? Because brakes are unsprung weight and that has significant effects on how the suspension performs and in particular the speed at which it reacts to surface imperfections to keep the tyre contact patch under control.

Now, I love that we have vendors who are providing some great braking options and if you're really hard on your brakes then go for one of these kits. I know I am tempted when I see these kits (because I can't find Uno Turbo brakes!). Just pick something appropriate.

Cheers,

Rob
 
Just an FYI on your FYI...

Mark Allison released his version of adapting a WIlwood 4 piston Caliper and larger rotor just recently, as well as Matt Brannon has his WHOA Kits, both are for the front ends only {& to be used with 15"+ wheels}.

For giggles... I looked up what Wilwood sells their upgraded kits for a 2013 FIAT 500 and I've posted theM here for your perusal.

http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitAdvisor.aspx?year=2013&make=Fiat&model=500&option=Abarth

Sooooo... just to compare...

4-piston Wilwood Forged Dynalite calipers with 10.25" vented rotors versus 6-piston Wilwood Dynapro 6 calipers with 12.19" drilled/slotted/vented rotors?

Yeah, totally fair comparison. :rolleyes:
 
Hmmmm... those are $1250 and $757 respectively...

plus shipping, etc. and I would guess they bolt on without the need for an adapter. I cannot tell the size of the rotor though and one fella placed a kitchen knife next to one... HA!

Great contribution Dom... thanks...
 
Well, I see your point with what I wrote...

But I did not mean to compare the two systems in performance and price... I just really intended to SHARE what was out there and for how much.

As I basically said in my first paragraph, I believe stock system is quite adequate and I kinda think 4 piston calipers are a bit overboard, and the 6 piston calipers and their associated rotors are even going further overboard.

When I tried to look up some small 4 piston calipers from Wilwood they were about $180 and up apiece which made the kit offerings from Matt and Mark now look pretty good.

Hopefully that clears up what I was trying to say... I have no interest in ANY of these systems, financially or otherwise, except for the pleasure of discussion and sharing...
 
I didn't see your post as a comparison Tony

Just very relevant information. Dom's finds are also great. Of course he has the advantage of being in Germany now and finding those systems. :) Thanks for sharing Dom. And maybe gtturbo can find some Uno Turbo front brakes...

I've been looking for an excuse to fit bigger brakes but I find that the drilled and grooved discs and EBC green pads on the front to be up to the job of day to day driving. Once we move up to the mountains next week it might be a different story though.

Isn't it amazing how many options we still have for performance parts for our little Fiats? I love it!!!

Cheers,

Rob
 
According to the listing Dom posted

I cannot tell the size of the rotor though and one fella placed a kitchen knife next to one... HA!

Great contribution Dom... thanks...

The rotors are 280mm x 28mm. That's 11'' x 1.1" in the old money. Could maybe squeeze these into 14" wheels? Definitely 15s.
 
Indeed... there are problems with this medium...

of communication and sometimes the INTENT of the writer is somewhat blurred, and at other times obvious no matter what is said.

There are lots of stuff out there and the SEARCH is part of the fun. Some things are just so much easier via keyboard but not as adventurous as getting out in the car and physically crawling over stuff to find what you think you need!
 
IMO the stock X1/9 brakes are horrible. I'm comparing to Volvos, since that's all I've driven for the past 30 years, but still horrible.

The Brake upgrade from Vic's is a significant improvement.

I've never cared for the Wilwood brakes - the ones they market for Volvo application have very poor pad/rotor coverage, that in of itself is off-putting, never mind the lack of piston boots as standard, etc..
 
Ha... Hussein, I must admit in my 66 years on this planet...

I have NEVER even ridden in a Volvo or can compare it to anything...

But I have been is a "few" other cars... and as Bernice and I are kinda wondering... just what's WRONG with your X1/9 Brakes?

I'm sure you have the skill to investigate and I would encourage you to do so. Something just doesn't seem right. I know the feel is "different" but I find they can perform exceptionally well!
 
Alfa Milano calipers

My Milano has the factory aluminum dual piston Brembos, I have been contemplating mocking up a set on my X1/9. They are small and lightweight, I'll have to take some measurements though as the front rotors are vented on the Milano.
 
Curious, what makes the brakes on the x1/9 "horrible" compared to the brakes on Volvo?
Bernice

Pedal feel & (lack of 'grab') under light pedal pressure. No progressive feel or 'bite'. Until I installed the larger front brakes from Vic's, I had no real confidence in the brakes under any other than pedestrian driving situations. Stopping distance was pretty appalling. I had replaced hoses, serviced the slider plates, etc, to make sure they weren't hanging.

Obviously pad composition can have an impact, however the brakes never inspired any confidence until now. I would still like to get rid of the old style calipers in the rear & install slider pin style 'floating' calipers - the Volvo S40 used a similar eBrake mechanism, so maybe I can repurpose those :roll eyes:

Ideally, I would prefer 4 or six piston brembos - I really prefer them over 'floating' calipers, but I can't see spending that much time & energy to make something from another application work.
 
I'm pretty sure you just neglected to mention...

that you rebuilt the calipers also...

The only other possibility, but even then I think the FEEL would still not be acceptable to you.

Mine feels like I am pressing on concrete... I just press harder to stop sooner. I must admit the feel is like no other, but I have come to find they work every well and I can deal with the "abnormality".

Maybe when you have had your car 25+ years you'll feel the same way...

HA!
 
The X brakes, being unassisted, make me think of driving a kart in F1 or something. They work fine, but you have to really stand on them. the only place I noticed anything weird was on Mulholland Drive when I was out there last year. Lots of downhill is hard on normal pads. EBC pads might be better. They work fine for autocross, but I would not track the car without upgraded pads and fluid. The Vicks kit looks like the most cost-effective solution when that bridge needs to be crossed.
 
1977 Road & Track road test summary:

X1/9, 80 to 0 = 280 ft. On period correct tires.
Road%2526Trak%2520test%25201977%252C%2520A-M.jpg


Volvo 244DL, 80 to 0 = 287 ft. On period correct tires.
Road%2526Trak%2520test%25201977%252C%2520M-V.jpg


Do look over the rest of this list to get an idea of what brake performance was like from that era.

Larger front rotors and caliper pistons will reduce braking effort at the front brakes with the trade off of more front brake bias. This change effectively alters brake feel towards power assisted brakes. The vented rotors will help in heat dissipation.

Zero wrong with altering the brakes on the exxe to deliver this kind of feel. There are trade-offs as with most any design change.

One of the most common complaints about the brakes on the exxe, there is a feeling that the brakes lack stopping power. What is actually happening, the exxe has fully manual brakes with zero brake assist giving the impression the brakes on the exxe will not stop or lacks stopping power with poor performance.


From my point of view, the brakes on the exxe is the best for any production car with the exception of having too much front bias causing the front brakes to lock up too easy. This makes the exxe chassis difficult to "squat" when setting up for a corner due to the rate of weight transfer rear to front. This is the reason why the brake pressure limiter was installed on the front brake circuit during the recent pedal box fix. The next step is to change the rear calipers from 34mm to 38mm which will increase the brake bias towards the rear. Step two is to install the set of Fiat Uno Turbo front brake complete on the front then tweak that front brake pressure limiter to fine tune the overall brake bias. All this will result in higher brake pedal effort, traded off for better overall brake bias ratio and increased head dissipation in the front brakes.

When the brakes are proper on the exxe, the pedal is ROCK hard once the free play is taken up. This means pedal force modulates the stopping force for the chassis. The pedal force -vs- stopping force is quite linear, very different from power assisted brakes. Another difference is the consistency of stopping and pedal feel due to the completely manual brake system of the exxe. There is no hysteresis common in many power assisted brake systems. This is the same reason why small race cars lack power assist on the brakes. Spend some time in a real race car (not production based) or Go-Kart, these race vehicles have full manual brakes that requires real pedal effort to get the brakes to work.

What digs me about recent production cars, the brakes are WAY over power assisted making brake modulation very difficult. It is possible with modern ABS systems, the ability for the driver to modulate the brakes has been taken over by another uP nanny.


Bernice


Pedal feel & (lack of 'grab') under light pedal pressure. No progressive feel or 'bite'. Until I installed the larger front brakes from Vic's, I had no real confidence in the brakes under any other than pedestrian driving situations. Stopping distance was pretty appalling. I had replaced hoses, serviced the slider plates, etc, to make sure they weren't hanging.

Obviously pad composition can have an impact, however the brakes never inspired any confidence until now. I would still like to get rid of the old style calipers in the rear & install slider pin style 'floating' calipers - the Volvo S40 used a similar eBrake mechanism, so maybe I can repurpose those :roll eyes:

Ideally, I would prefer 4 or six piston brembos - I really prefer them over 'floating' calipers, but I can't see spending that much time & energy to make something from another application work.
 
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Road & Track Road test summary 1980. First road test of the carb 1500cc, 5 speed x1/9.

80 to 0 = 249 ft. Better numbers likely due to better tires. Brake system remains much the same since beginning of production (there are differences, but are not that significant).
Road%2526Trak%2520test%25201980%252C%2520A%2520to%2520L.jpg



Volvo 242GT, 80 to 0 = 245ft. Better than the exxe by four feet?
Volvo GL, 80 to 0 = 278 ft. Similar to previous years of Volvo.

Road%2526Trak%2520test%25201980%252C%2520M%2520to%2520V.jpg


Porsche 930 turbo, 80 to 0 = 237ft.
Ferrari 308, 80 to 0, 270ft_ish.
Chevy Corvette, 80 to 0 = 244ft.
Lotus Esprit, 80 to 0 = 290ft.
Lambo Countach S, 80 to 0 = 226ft.
Mercedes 450SL, 80 to 0 = 247ft.
Maserati Merak SS, 80 to 0, 262ft.


Overall, the performance of the 1500cc, 5 speed x1/9 from this RT is not bad at all.

It is so very easy to forget the level of performance from these cars when compared to "performance cars" built today. To be honest and realistic when making comparisons, these R&T road test summaries serve as a reminder of what and how things were like back in the day.


Bernice
 
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