BMW e36 & e46 ..

Rupunzell

Bernice Loui
Some time ago there was a discussion on suggestions for a RWD daily driver. The BMW e36 & 346 was suggested.

Turns out, both e36 & e46 have a serious defect with the entire rear chassis design which causes a structural failure of the entire area of the rear chassis.

Adding to this problems with VANOS, other chassis problems and cost of parts and service makes for a less than appealing motor to own.

There appears to be a class action law suite over this.

Not good at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvyfSpHpx6A


Apparently this happens to Z3's too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JIPJLROAes


Bernice
 
From what I've been told, the early 1990s is when BMW began to lose their way...making more extensive use of CAD to design their cars only as strong as product planners deemed "necessary", in order to save weight and manufacturing costs. Quality of some of the interior materials went down as well, supposedly in the interests of "recycling". MB went through a similar trend over the years.

I have a 1987 535is (E28) and a 1985 635CSi (E24) which were some of the last BMWs to be "over-engineered". I'd recommend an E28 (especially a 533i or 535i) to an enthusiast who's looking for a quality, inexpensive, practical, fun-to-drive DD. Certain E30s (1980s 3-series) are also very entertaining and have a solid reputation. There's a big community of support for all these older bimmers, too.
 
BMWs

Guys I've owned both, E36 328iauto & E46 325 (drift heaven). Both were great drivers cars & provided endless comfort & fun. They are well balanced & reward hard driving. Both were mega reliable & expensive to service if you took them to BMW. Parts were on a par with anything else but there was loads of support & a few good BMW clubs. I cant fault them as an everyday driver & neither ever let me down.
Just my experience of BMW's.
 
I work on a lot of E46 BMWs and I really like them. In fact I would own one but they never were available in the US with the 4 cylinder turbo diesel. It's my understanding that the structural problems are only an issue with the M3. I've only ever seen it on the M3 and I work on way more non-M cars. The VANOS system isn't that bad if the engine is serviced properly. The 15500 mile oil changes with the factory BMW oil is a bit much especially considering that the on board maintenance reminder does not do a very good job of taking short trip into account.

However, being a German car, a BMW is not going to be a the most reliable, trouble free car you can own. But they can be quite good in the right hands. If you want a reasonably priced late model RWD daily driver I don't think there is a better option in North America than the E46. Although, I'd get the AWD version because I'm not a big fan of RWD cars as daily drivers.
 
My E36 is the ti

The 4-cyl hatchback that gets no respect. Has the E30 rear end, and so doesn't suffer from this.
 
I’ve worked on both and never personally seen the rear sub frame, or whatever you want to call it, fail. It is too my understanding it is only the M cars and Select E46 cars that have this issue as the part that fails is made from aluminum. They’re easy to work on for the most part and fun to drive. I just helped a friend build a 3.0 franken engine and put it into his ’92 E36. There is so much aftermarket support and knowledge it’s really not a bad choice if you are handy with a wrench. If not and you want a fun "reliable" RWD sports car, get a Miata :)
 
Since we are on the Bimmer subject. I have done 2 E36's with the rear suspension problem and neither were M series. Although a bit lengthy on time it really is not too bad to repair.

The vanos system is not really complicated and i rather enjoy repairing them.

For the average person i can see where this becomes a problem for either issue, but in general these cars are built fairly well and a good majority of these cars don't have the structural damage.

Just my :2c:
 
This discovery about the e36 & e46 really surprised me. Growing up around and owning more than a few BMWs from the pre 320i era. Those BMWs never really had problems like this which really surprise me. Not to say those BMWs did not have their problems, just not like these.

There was a point of considering one of these for ownership.

As for Miata's being reliable, having done a significant amount of stuff and modified a 97' NA, they are not any more reliable or problem free than a EFI 1500cc x1/9. We have busted that Miata, more than a few times, it's mechanicals are not problem free, complete with required timing belt changes and all that. There is a difference in technology used, except that is expected as the Miata was designed some 25 years after the x1/9 giving it that technological advantage.

As for comparing chassis between the Miata & x1/9, the x1/9 is better in many ways including a much more rigid chassis that really matters when performance mods are applied.

One last thing on BMWs and cars like them today. They are best enjoyed as delivered OE. There are very real limits to how much these motor cars can be modified. Yes, there are always engine power up modifications which is the performance aspect of motor vehicles that is easiest to access by most drivers. The old adage, horse power-acceleration sells cars really applies here.

Modifying the chassis-suspension on these motor vehicles are a LOT more difficult and complex due to their design and design intent. Their design intent is for travel on roads or travel at high speed (over 100 Mph) while providing comfort, ease of control and safety for the driver and comfort for passengers. Beyond this, their sheer and size weight is a serious problem.

Two seaters like the exxe or Miata can take on a different mission in their lives as there are options to update their suspensions to an intent quite different from their original offering.


Bernice
 
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Googling and the internet will only give you a image of the small percentage of any issue, not the vast majority that have no problems and thus do not come to the internet to bleat about it and vent their pain. I wonder how long that English car was driven like that to tear such a massive section out of it. Surely a routine service looking at a known issue would have picked it up long before it got that bad, how could anyone ignore the racket it would have made under heavy acceleration for so long? IMHO a serial abuser drives that car.


Is this the issue with the failure of one of the VANOS unit mounting bolts that you are referring to Bernice?

For 2010 - 2012, this is a well known issue as this bolt was used at many points in the vehicles assembly and there is an updated version of the bolt for use in the E46 M3 S54 engine (and MZ3 and Z4 M). If a certified mechanic hadn't replaced it then he/she is a doofus. The Fillister Head Screw VANOS Mounting Bolt was Updated and if one lets go the ECU has a check light that comes on if it senses the system is out of sync. So if someone ignores a warning checklight then perhaps a horse and cart is more the mode of transport for an owner chooses to ignore it.

Other marques use cam phasers to achieve Variable valve timing which are less complex ( electrical even ), the hydraulically operated VANOS is an engineering marvel. Admittedly needs 'fettling' and a lot of love that the average punter has little sympathy for, I have seen one photo sent to me off the Internet of a S50B32 that had grunge/sludge the consistency of treacle and candle wax smothering shafts in the cam box, yet it was still working.

Whilst not the same generation VANOS, I have had a South African E36 M3 import on my lift that belonged to one of my suppliers. Rare as hens teeth down under, as this was a very old Dealer Tech demonstrator for the BMW courses they put their Techs thru Downunder. The fear spread by some of these internet campaigns had even him worried. His is an E36 it was there that the rear frame issue first appeared ( you would have thought that BMW would have addressed it before the E46 was released ). He was happy to get him self dirty to save the horrific quote he got to check it and fit a kit so We stripped the section and found nothing so re applied the seal / deadening & put in aftermarket bushes.

So yes as in posts above I have only heard of the M3 series models having this issue, there is massive amounts of power in these upper M' spec models shoehorned into a midrange sedan body. If you drive any car hard for long enough it WILL FAIL, couple that with the increase in specific power output and there is a greater opportunity for failure. I understand that there are chassis repair and reinforcement kits available for the E46 so perhaps BMW should have had a production line strengthening kit to insert into the M3 models and changed the bush design before it left the factory.

I guess this is the rotten fruit of CAD design to a lower common denominator when the higher spec model pushes the outer envelope of structural integrity of a common body shell and how bean counters that now control manufacture limit the costly 'over engineering' that once we looked upon with admiration. Reflects on the old one liner " Built to last" Not much is built to last anymore such is the evil of design obsolescence.

For an average looking sedan that trundles along in traffic sipping fuel like a tea toteller that has the combination of a frantic, rev-hungry engine and responsive handling that has the ability to put your testicles in the base of your throat when you open the taps it is a desirable car that I know will hold its market value as time goes on.

Basically I find the lack of faith in German Engineering disturbing, but one thing should be pointed out, just because you can buy a car that once cost, eight, perhaps even ten times what your’re paying now don't forget that while the cost of buying the car might have dropped, the cost of a certified Dealer maintaining it probably won’t have done the same. It probably costs just as much - or more.


Not that anyone cares but for my 2 cents, Bernice if you can find an unabused, unaffected chassis fit a strengthening kit/bushes and the rear end is bullet proof. There is a knowledge base of which parts are weak like the bolts on the camshafts which have uprated parts. The Gen 2 VANOS is not that fiddly but needs to be fed good fluid to be reliable.

It occurred to me that you do indeed think like an engineer, you had an opinion offered to you and you did your own analysis and reported your findings - excellent I wish more folks had independent minds, for someone who has more engineering acumen than I will ever have I think a E46 M3 is still a choice that you (c)should not discount. Your Miata has had so many improvements why expect the BMW could not benift from a bit of your vast engineering skills.


Be wary of the early SMG transmission failures (rare) and avoid the auto, A manual E46 M is a stunning car but it will steal a big chunk of your money if you can't turn that spanner yourself, but for those that I meet that own one they don’t mind because it has already has already stolen their heart.


PS

Not that all of it is relevant but to get my head around the E36 before we dropped the bum I was sent these links, the E46 is different but I'm not sure that massively different.

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1214180-Suspension-Overhaul-FAQ
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=308718




Kungfut the 2 E36's with the rear suspension problem you sorted, at what location did the fatigue cracks materialize (rear shock towers?), this was the reason I bought the Big Foot reinforcing plates for one of my X's. Anyway the reason I ask is it has been a few years since that M3 has been up on my lift and a quick look at it again seems justified.



Oh & the Euro 3 litre has a better reputation than the larger 3.2 engine if my grey matter is firing correctly today.
 
This image shows why the concern over this problem. BWM used spot welds to retain a reinforcement plate on the other side of the subframe mount that appears to support a welded nut for the sub frame bolt.
http://www.autobahnperf.com/technical-information/bmw-frame/images/cracked-sub-frame.jpg

Legal action in American courts have been taken and ruled upon.
http://classactionlawsuitsinthenews...-rear-axle-sub-frame-class-action-settlement/

Spot welds have a tendency to exhibit differential hardness between the sport weld and the area surrounding the spot weld. This difference in material hardness tends to promote microscopic cracks which grow under cyclic loading. Initially, these cracks are invisible to the naked eye, in time they can and do grow and expand resulting in a very serious problem or catastrophic failure. Beyond, these problems, contamination from the copper electrodes can and does happen, surface contamination causing voids and inclusions in the spot weld are among many things that go awry with spot welding. Problems are made worst due to high strength steels common today in production chassis in a effort to save weight and increase crash protection of it's occupants.

What is most disturbing, if BMW's engineering is good, their engineering folks would have known well to have considered this and done the spot welding in a different way or use another method of fastening.

Their fix of reinforcement and foam filling is a band-aid to a design problem that should have never occurred when this chassis went into production. What car brands do know, they do not expect these chassis to be on the road for more than their warranty period. Thus the balance between production cost, methods, warranty claims, legal liability and owner-user discontent.

Spot welding and welding in general is my least favored way of joint making. Spot welding in the aerospace industry is almost unknown in structurally important areas for these specific reasons. Spot welding is the jointing method of choice for much of the motor production industry due to cost -vs- speed -vs- strength of joint.

Over the years, the number of serious problem caused by spot welds found in various spot welded chassis has not been small. One of my pet peeve offenders is the welded in nut, when these fail, they tend to be in an area of the chassis that is non-accessable causing serious grief to deal with.

Thanks for that link on the M3, the rear suspension has evolved quite a bit since the semi-trailing arm suspension that was so very common in many German designed suspensions (a very good thing). It has toe in on bump, which is a good thing, but limited in it's ability to be adjusted and set up for corner weight balancing which is critical to a HP suspension. Good for it's original intent, to significantly up rate it to become serious, it becomes a challenge which is true in varying degrees in all production cars. Some are far easier than others, this one is more difficult than easy.

This rear suspension design reminds me in ways of what Mazda did in the RX8 and NC Miata. So, there appears to be a modern direction for RWD front engine chassis.

I do think BMW has become a very different company since it's early days and has become a brand that appeals to a very different owner-driver than they once did. This is based on their products sold in the US market.

Given this, that e30 M3 looks better each passing day.

As for German engineering, it's just engineering, engineering should never be judged by it's Nationality, but by the merit of it's worth and the use of basic science behind it's implementation.


Bernice
 
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I do think BMW has become a very different company since it's early days and has become a brand that appeals to a very different owner-driver than they once did. This is based on their products sold in the US market.

Given this, that e30 M3 looks better each passing day.

Thanks for elaborating on this issue Bernice. I've seen it discussed several times on BMW forums but no one has explained the problem in the depth that you have.

You're also right about BMW the company, and their current typical customer. A local BMW sales rep recently told me that (at least here in CA) over 90% of their new cars are leased, not purchased.

I first took notice of BMW cars in the mid-1970s shortly after I bought a new X1/9 and thought a (then-new) 530i sedan would have made a nice daily driver. They're still making some cars I'd like to drive...and maybe even lease...but not anything I'd want to actually OWN. All the modern technology that's crammed into them isolates the driver from the actual experience of driving and takes away the fun-factor. Because of that plus their high initial cost, the high cost of maintenance over the long haul, and the fact they've become so complicated and almost impossible for the average enthusiast to work on, they no longer appeal to me. I'll stick with the vintage bimmers.
 
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They're still making some cars I'd like to drive...and maybe even lease...but not anything I'd want to actually OWN. All the modern technology that's crammed into them isolates the driver from the actual experience of driving and takes away the fun-factor. Because of that plus their high initial cost, the high cost of maintenance over the log haul, and the fact they've become so complicated and almost impossible for the average enthusiast to work on, they no longer appeal to me. I'll stick with the vintage bimmers.

This is me in a nutshell, for any car made today. If I can't fix it then it really loses its appeal. :(
 
well..........

I had enough bmw's in my life , I advice you to get a a E39 .
it is very comfortable , few electronics in old style ( it can be fixed cheap , or spare parts are not expenceive as used parts ) . I am not sure how tax's are in USA , but here best option is a 2.0L diesel ( power vs tax ) .
Is a good car with no big problems ......... at least in europe .
 
Agreed OVI

E39s are very reliable here in the states too. The early models are virtually trouble free.
 
Thats nothing

Back around 68 when I was still in the navy I traded an old 1951 Matchless motorcycle with a bad primary chain for a 55 Chevy two door. I told the guy the bike was junk but he wanted it so I traded for the Chevy which I knew was a piece of junk also but at least it was running. I had given the car a cursory look and saw a lot of Mickey Mouse stuff but missed a major one. The car had a cherry looking body with gray primer. It had 348 with a two speed slip and slide crammed in. The builders (I use the term loosely) had sloppily cut the front shroud area to set the radiator forward to make room for the engine. The trans's tail was sitting on a piece of ¾ angle iron resting on the frame rails with a piece of pipe wired to that. I could go on but this is what happened. A shipmate that would ride with me on weekends to and from San Diego and Riverside California wanted to buy the car. I told him what a pos it was and I wanted $200. He still wanted it. One night about 3am we were heading back to the ship when we picked up a Marine that was hitch hiking by Fallbrook. The Marine had no sooner got in when Garry Lee said punch it cliff and see what she will do. Being young and stupid he didn’t have to ask twice. I romped the peddle and the quad on the 348 opened up and in a very short time the Speedo was going passed 70 and heading for 80. That is when all hell broke loose. The car started violently shaking, The dome light fell out of the over head and the car was all over the road while I was desperately trying to hang on to the steering wheel. While all this was going on a loud rumbling noise could be heard in unison with the Marine yelling stop the car we’re going to die. After I got the car slowed down and then stopped to let the Marine out we eased on into Diego. Gary went ahead and bought the car and kept me abreast of all the stuff that was wrong with the car. He finally clued me as to what caused the car to almost wreck that night. When the builders ( I really use the term loosely) had cut the cross member out so the oil pan of the 348 would fit. The little bit of metal that was left had broken through so that when the car was brought up to higher speeds the frame rails would spread out changing a whole bunch of stuff like making the wheels want to go in different directions for one.
 
The E30, E36, E46 M3 badge cars are from three eras, same identity but three very different characters. A consequence perhaps of the changing Corporate Automotive landscape that all car makers have had to adapt to to survive. Besides the E30 the E46 is the only other M3 I like, because they consciously went back to the basics of the original E30. The E46 was lighter (than the E36) and the engine was about rpms, the Euro spec engine had the highest specific output of any mass produced naturally aspirated engine ever made by BMW, producing 343 horsepower. The manual gearbox mated to that high-revving normally aspirated straight six, at a melodious and deep-voiced 7900 rpm = joy!

In a way I understand you are drawn to the charm of the original E30 M3 body.The E30 has the same raw character that my own Peugeot 205 GTi has over its newer 208 GTi counterpart. The original 205 GTi was a VW Golf GTi killer, it came from the same era. Like the E30 lighter more nimble and the ability to have your hair stand on end when pushed hard yet able to trundle around town like an econobox. The later model grew fat with safely features and a more powerful engine to compensate but never captured the essence of the original 205 GTi. I would say that it never will as regulation determines we can't build cars like that anymore, I had been offered 206 Gti 180's cheap but I will never let go of the somewhat ancient 205. Similar to comments above I can easily comprehend the 205's Mototronic ECU and fix the mechanical systems myself. Newer vehicles are laden with so much that disconnects you from the driving experience and the self maintenance possibilities.

The latest versions of both marques are quieter, calmer, more refined, and more progressive in the way they deliver the goods. The newer versions are a lot quicker against the stopwatch but don’t make your heart beat as fast as yesterday’s cult hero can.


The original M, the E30 M3, is light and tight and despite the limited use of high-strength steels is stiff, but its chassis dates back to an era when we still flew DC-9s. The later E46 M3 unibody is over half high-strength steel is still markedly heavier and rather loose, but its suspension, steering, and brakes celebrate the fine art concept of communication introduced in the E30. The bigger engine is brawny and the Euro versions more powerful than the neutered units created for the USA because CO2 became a synonym for guilty conscience. These bigger engines are a delight to run hard and one reason I say E46, if that rush from the 6 cylinder doesn't float your boat that's fine too.

An E46 just plain and simply is a nicer daily driver (isn't that what you asked for), on long trip you will arrive at the other end more relaxed and composed. The E30 is a more raw driving experience, you will be buzzing like a caffeine addict with a sore bum as the E30 is not as comfortable long haul.

If your decision for the earlier E30 is because of a 'superior' earlier unibody construction be aware of the rear end cracks of the E30 rear sway bar to body mounting brackets are famous for. When they tear out, you're left with more work than just replacing a bracket!


As for German engineering, it's just engineering, engineering should never be judged by it's Nationality, but by the merit of it's worth and the use of basic science behind it's implementation.

Whilst I agree with the analytically premise of your statement I differ in opinion for mainstream production (which is what this BMW is). You yourself expressed disappointment for the rear body to subframe issues as the reputation the German car had was quite high. This good reputation for quality came from engineering and quality assurance systems that some Asian manufacturers have only relatively recently embraced, a lot have not. Many folks don't have the time to assess the merits of construction method so rest upon the national engineering consciousness of those cultures. Would I, subconsciously or not, pick German over, lets say for the sake of discussion, Chineese - absolutely. But like you I'd look at the item in question to weigh the merits of each. Some may call this prejudice, or perhaps it is wise to work on the the understanding of a reputation earned. That is not to say that cracks ( pun intended ) in the system sometimes delivers a lemon. That China is an industrial powerhouse that can consistently deliver high quality products is something the average punter is yet to wake up to. But there is a culture of what I call back door subcontracting where the instances of components that get made out of the documented chain to an inferior quality elsewhere only to show up in the final assembled product. Do that in Germany and you will be finished ( and be more likely to be discovered).

The robotized spot welding of unibody production is not going to go away due to the cost savings, building a car the way you might an plane or a supercar is not feasible at the price point consumers expect. Out of interest for my supplier in Sydney the strengthening plates offered for the E36 are designed to be fully seam and rosette welded in place. Given the correct weld penetration and paint system finishing is there any better way to address the stress fatigue cracking in the rear chassis pickup points. His is a fairly unique example of a M3 down here and he is interested if there was a better way of addressing this problem.

He is far more versed in the BMW scene than I would ever bother to be and mentions the widely held belief among the Roundel community that the reason the E46 was more prone was due to the design of the mount bushing itself and not the body nor the rear subframe. The two crescent shapes on the bushing accentuated the point loading on the metal skin and many of the guys he mixes with changed them for an aftermarket part with a larger seating area to spread the increased load on acceleration/deceleration that comes with the M3 versions.


I am very interested in your thoughts.
 
BMW's here in Silly Valley (Silicon Valley) and much of the US has little resale value which makes them quite disposable and why most of the new ones are lease cars. On the used market, M3's start at scrap value to running cars that begin at about $3,000 USD up to ones that are on the market for $20,000+ owned by a BMW fan who has shoveled piles of $ into them hoping to get some of it back. Basically, BMWs are not precious at all here in NA with few exceptions.

The main attraction to many BMWs are it's engine and related mechanicals. It is one of the cars that can be had off the show room floor that offers a lot of power for its cost. They are also very common at track days where owners can take their ride out on the track and drive them as hard and as fast as said owner would dare. At the majority of track days I have attended over the years, almost always some BMW get's stuffed into the wall or goes farming in a serious way causing serious damage or turning their pride and joy ride into a pile of metal rubble. This speaks to the type of individuals who owns them and takes them to the track.

Beyond this, BMW drivers don't have a kind reputation on the roads here. They are branded as aggressive and arrogant drivers on the roads who use the cars acceleration and related to bully other vehicles.

Over the years, BMW has become a very different company than what it once was. During the years when they where involved with Formula One, they built their best enthusiast cars. The guy who got the M1 project to see the light of day almost got fired for that stunt and BMW initially did not want to import any M3 or M series cars to America, that change when they figured out America is too significant and big a market to ignore. Since then, their cars have become far too complex, far too expense and far too disconnected from the driving experience their early cars offered and delivered so very well. This added complexity makes it near impossible for an individuals to deal with specific ECU problems that require communications with the data servers and security access codes to update and service uP related systems in their newer cars. None of this has any appeal to me what so ever.

In the world of LeMons racing, the e30 and earlier cars have proven their worth as rugged, reliable (except for electronics, gear boxes and some times engines) to do well at LeMons racing. Their later cars like the e36, e46 has not done nearly as well. NASA has a spec e30 series much like SCCA's spec Miata. That spec e30 series does fine.

With all that, the e30 M3 remains the choice BMW for real car folks, their later M3's are more powerful, comfy and such that are designed for a different kind of owner/driver.

As for made in China. They have become quite an industrial nation indeed with the economic might that comes from making stuff. They suffer from a toxic environment, with a food supply that has killed many. Infant formula made in China is not safe causing native Chinese to rush into Hong Kong to purchase known safe infant formula to be re-sold on the black market. Most of the industrial products from China continues to be inferior with counterfeit products ramped all over.

Many of these problems are baked into Chinese culture and is not likely going to change. The way Chinese culture and ways of doing business is completely alien with a completely different set of rules relative to western european ways of doing business.

Direct translation of China = Central Nation. Know this once super power is adamant to return to being the world's super power and central nation at any cost regardless of the time required. They honestly believe they are the superior entity that is to rule planet earth with their ways. This is at the core of what drives their actions.



Bernice
 
This is me in a nutshell, for any car made today. If I can't fix it then it really loses its appeal. :(

You would hate, as I do, anything past an E46 3 series. No oil dipstick or coolant temp gauge just idiot lights. When your car overheats because the electric thermostat or water pump fails, you wont know till it's too late :mallet:
 
Bernice states... "Beyond this, BMW drivers...

don't have a kind reputation on the roads here. They are branded as aggressive and arrogant drivers on the roads who use the cars acceleration and related to bully other vehicles."

And its really a shame... but I haveta agree. Which reminds me...

Does everyone here understand the similarity between a BMW Owner and a Hemorrhoid?
 
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