Just completed 2nd Lemons Race......

The "Doing Time in Joliet" Lemons race was Saturday. This was our teams 2nd attempt with a 1974 Fiat X1/9. Our first attempt didn't go quite as planned. So here was our chance at redemption. We are running a 1300 and a 5 speed in the stock class. Yes the Lemons judges laughed at us again taking pictures of our "stock" engine.

This 40 year old Fiat just completed 5 hours of testing and 14 hours straight of "right foot to the floor" racing... The last three hours in the dark. It consumed 1 quart of oil, zero coolant, 2 ounces of brake fluid for the clutch, and 1 Fiat 500 wheel. Finishing third in its class of eight cars. The last several hours running without a working clutch pedal.

We were just happy that we were able to run the entire race with only a few minor tweaks needed throughout the 14 hour race. Plus with nobody on our team with more than 2 Lemons races as experience we were happy to check off running the whole race from our bucket list. Then at the award announcements we found out that we were the 2014 autobahn 24 hours of Lemons Doing time in Joliet Index of Effluency Winner.

The grand prize (and considered by some to be the "true" winner) is the Index of Effluency award, presented to a car considered unlikely to finish the race at all, let alone finish with a respected number of laps completed... The prize is always $1 more than the team could win by winning the race or their class.

Thanks to my team members Tom B, Rich and Tom M as well as Matt Brannon from Midwest Bayless. Matt's advice and work he performed on the head made a big difference over our first attempt in April. I'm looking forward to our 3rd attempt this October.

Many many Congrats, it's always great to see an X perform in plain view of all the "fix it again, tony" naysayers out there.

And I must admit, I have a hint of jealosy brewing too, since bucket list includes having a chance to do something similar.

Laugh as they may, the exxe makes a far better endurance racer than most would ever know.

We have been racing the same exxe chassis since 2008? It is one of the oldest LeMons racers that is still racing today.

Just a reminder from back in the day when the car folks predicted the x1/9 would go 27 laps.. we lasted the WHOLE event and much more.
http://jalopnik.com/5121314/italian...le-at-lemons-other-than-the-blown-head-gasket


Keep at it and "Enjoy The Ride"

BTW, Jay and the crew have been eyeing the IOE for an x1/9 since LeMons began.... CONGRATS...



Bernice

Congrats! That is awesome.........

Two Thumbs Up !!

Great effort Bob, well done. I am green with envy. :worship::worship::worship:


Aurelio Lampredi made a durable little motor, often misunderstood & malighned but with a little knowledge they can be made bullet proof. The X shell as we know is well up to it.

Congradulations to you and the team

Now do it again so the great unwashed know it wasn't just luck.

Bravo Zulu

Congrats on the epic "effluency" award! that's the one everyone wants!

Sandgroper said:

Two Thumbs Up !!

Aurelio Lampredi made a durable little motor, often misunderstood & malighned but with a little knowledge they can be made bullet proof. The X shell as we know is well up to it.

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I would say that he made a decent motor... durable is in the skill of the engine builder, he may have put the basics there. The core design can be made better relatively easily though . Unfortunately make one or two "little" mistakes and the thing will come apart. The good thing is they are relatively simple so after some painful lessons you can make them reliable provided you dont make one or two other new little mistakes. I find the engine OK but underpowered and unforgiving with head gaskets. All in all unless you have Bernice or Steve's skill going in I think it makes a poor lemons engine, too little power to use its cornering. It is a great chassis though and still fun even making less than 100hp. It's too expensive to rebuild these engines for the power you get (for Lemons anyway).

The positive is the fuel mileage is fantastic which is important for an endurance racer. When the series started you could run a 24 gallon tank which would give you about 6 hours racing with some cautions!

To do it again we wouldn't try all the cheap methods for boosting hp, just a stock engine with a better carb and exhaust, maybe some minor home-brew port work to improve Ve and run it. I think stock (without higher comp or revs) they can be very reliable and still take abuse. Higher compression, cams, and advanced ignition timing can quickly end the day unless carefuly engineered and installed.

As you see to win class C lemons you must purely circulate the longest. No chance winning class A and hard to win class B without a lot of massaging.

I like what you did to meet the ever-tightening safety rules for driver compartment safety. If we were doing a new car now I would probably drop the floor a little and also do what you folks did. Our open top car with mesh windshield and no rear windshield is illegal at the moment

We only managed to win "Best Save" which is given to the team with the most mechanical issues who gets the car back and circulates many laps.

In our 3 races we have been poised for greatness every time. The X1/9s handling along with side benefits like fuel mileage allow a pit and driver strategy that put in a good spot to win our class or do well, but something always broke. My experiences with the x1/9 in lemons have been great ones ... of a lifetime, and our failures exposed our weaknesses as a mechanics (so we could improve). Though we have failed our team still loves the car and doesn't want another type.

I think the X1/9 succeeds despite it's engine, not becasue of. It's all about making the most of the complete package and not breaking down

I'm super happy you folks were successful in your race, it must make the cost of entry more palitable!

Wow, great job to you and your co drivers!

I drove my own non competitive race across the country this week, MI to VT for 14 hours. I can assure you what you did was much more fun...

Great finish. Look forward to seeing it in the fall at Gingerman.

Sounds like time to abandon the X master and slave, I wonder if a Miata master and slave could be adapted as a low cost easily found replacement with a new line run along the side of the anti intrusion bar across the door opening to keep it nearly level from the master to the slave to minimize bleeding pain.

Congrats Bob

Congrats to the team on taking the IoF award and on finishing the race.

Where is Gingerman? Maybe I will try to get there to check out the race if possible.

South Haven, MI

About 2 hours beyond FFO

Racing in Michigan this late in the year?

Isn't winter setting in up there already???

I was thinking.......

While driving the last 1 1/2 hours in the dark with no clutch I was thinking that I need to swap in something different as well. Looking at the project X1/9 race prep book this morning it looks like going aftermarket might be the answer. First project on the list for October.

bg82x said:

While driving the last 1 1/2 hours in the dark with no clutch I was thinking that I need to swap in something different as well. Looking at the project X1/9 race prep book this morning it looks like going aftermarket might be the answer. First project on the list for October.

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yea, it's not that it's a bad engine or that you need a big engine to DO lemons... but about 150 reliable HP would be really nice. When you can't out-drag station wagons it makes it less fun in corners (behind them).

If it helps I took detailed measurements on both a Cadillac northstar V8 (350hp) and a VW VR6. Both are too wide without significant re-framing and the ensuing suspension work meant for me welding in a complete front clip (onto the back).. worth considering but a lot of work.

For Lemons-budget mods I like the idea of a MOPAR 2.3 or 2.5 (turbo would be fun) or an older VW 1.8 engine using the 2.0 bottom end. As always the biggest pain with these mods is the shifter. Bernice's rotary is beyond my patience level and I hate how they sound in the pits

it's fun on long trips to plan the next mods, that for me is a large part of the enjoyment of the lemons series, the freedom and creativity it gives.

That is like OLYMPIC GOLD!

Congrats Bob and team... I'm sure you sent a whole bunch of other racers away mumbling!

bg82x said:

While driving the last 1 1/2 hours in the dark with no clutch I was thinking that I need to swap in something different as well. Looking at the project X1/9 race prep book this morning it looks like going aftermarket might be the answer. First project on the list for October.

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I am sure that's all you were thinking...

This pops into most every LeMon's racer's mind.. and most every other racer's mind. This is the same idea that has driven LeMons from cheap heaps ready for the smelter into race cars.. Back in the very beginning of LeMons it really was cheap heap racing on a figure 8 at Altamont race way which is now long gone. The speeds were not very high, may be 50 mph max and crash-O derby behavior was OK and acceptable.. Safety was, safe enough already.

These days, the speeds have gone up a factor of MANY resulting in cars that can embarrass more than a few current production high buck performance cars and the safety aspect is deadly serious business.

This was driven by the participants and Jay basically went OK.. Yet the highest possible award at LeMons is the IOE.. I'll explain.

If you're completely focused on winning this race, that is completely missing the point of LeMons. LeMons is much about having FUN and not taking all that racing to win stuff too seriously. Note there is really little fame and glory for the overall winners at LeMons.. except for the IOE. The IOE challenge is much about taking a car that has no real business on a race track, let alone being raced against other cars, keeping it on the track for hour after hour after hour until the checkered flag drops. It is a challenge for the individuals involved and the car, not about challenging others on track.

We won the IOE back in 2010 in a Fiat 600..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFIYcIwcQFA


Since then, the team decided that was all good and dandy but being a rolling road block was not much fun. So the rotary powered x1/9 started to become reality.

Going down this route can be a pile-O-worms in every way imaginable. What ever alternative engine/gearbox/chassis conversion that is considered, there must be on team expertise and commitment to support it. Don't even think of taking a parts yard engine/gear box and simply dropping it, then racing it at LeMons, chances are that will simply end in tears more than good clean racing fun.

To this, I ended up learning a lot more about Mazda Rotaries, what makes then tick, how to build up a proper racing rotary and what causes them to die. Similar with the Porsche gear box.

Regardless of how many "penalty laps" Jay and company might slap on your conversion special, creating it and racing it can be the fun part. Know that Jay is acutely aware the VAST majority of engine/gearbox converted cars don't work or die a horrid death on track or worst, "roll over and catch on fire."

If this is the route taken, consider there is basically total freedom to create what ya like, no minimum weight limits, engine displacement worries, suspension tweak worries, want to run current state of the art carbon brakes-not a problem at all. Oh, wheels are free. What limits the speeds and lap times of current LeMons racers is DOT 180 tires. If this was not so, more than a few of these LeMons car will end up going a LOT faster.

LeMons is much about an entire community of gear heads getting together and having a party at the track for an entire weekend. It is not about creating brand identity by winning or who has the highest buck factory backed car, who has paid off the race organizers to bend the rules towards their favor.

Then again, a Peripheral Ported Rotary can do this at LeMons..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWuNb14H-Uk&list=UUwh_UaR9_fgy97tZynvKs-w

Bernice

bg82x said:

While driving the last 1 1/2 hours in the dark with no clutch I was thinking that I need to swap in something different as well. Looking at the project X1/9 race prep book this morning it looks like going aftermarket might be the answer. First project on the list for October.

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Lots of great insight......

I was not clear on my previous statement. I have no intentions of using anything other than a Fiat X1/9 power plant.

My plan from the beginning was to be competitive in class C and work towards a class victory. After my first attempt I was even more determined to show that an X could be competitive even though the class winner the first time was a V6 car. I took a lot of crap after the first attempt from the organizers, judges, and mostly from the car & driver team. I really enjoyed the 2nd attempt when they saw I still had the same setup as the first race. Then ran 1000% better than the first time. The IOE was just icing on the cake.

I was referring to coming up with a more reliable master/slave clutch setup. In two races I have gone through 2 of each and still they did not hold up. This most recent failure looks like it's the slave which was recently replaced for the 2nd time.

My next attempt will be just improving what I can with my current 1300 setup. I realize it will take some luck and a lot more experience to achieve a class victory, but that's what makes it interesting and rewarding to me.

The stock clutch set up IS reliable and quite durable. What appears to have happened in recent years, the aftermarket replacement hydro parts are JUNK.. The stock design works and works reliable/durable. Do what ever is needed to figure what is failing and correct it. Don't waste time trying to re-design it as it will cause more problems and hassle and waste of time than the possible cure.

I'm looking at problems with the brake master cylinder again in the LeMons car as the brakes not a happy camper at the moment. When these cars were new, there were little if any hydro problems, the stock Fiat OEM parts held up great. Times have changed and it appears the aftermarket bits are generally poor.

New parts does not mean they are GOOD parts or reliable parts or durable parts.. what matters is the parts do their job old, new, used or ...

If the brake master turns out to be a problem again, I'll dig up a old OEM Fiat cylinder and have it sleeved in stainless and find the very best seals to install. Beyond this, the plan is to install a Tilton pedal set up or if one of those fancy-fancy AP racing pedal set-ups with the dual pivot master cylinders appear on ebay for an affordable price, then replace the stock set up with a normal race car set up complete with brake bias bar.. adjustable from the driver's seat.

Sticking with the 1300-1500cc engine, consider a proper exhaust header, four bike carbs and a much hotter cam. If possible get a big valve head for it with higher compression. We ran this combo for a few races. This combined with a GOOD suspension set up (this means proper coil over set up with GOOD dampers and completely adjustable for camber/ride height/ 2.5" springs and..). Change the stock rear brake calipers to front calipers will improve braking performance without cooking the front brakes.. Should net a x1/9 capable of keeping up with a Porsche 928.

There will be a gear ratio problem as third is a bit too big a gap from second with fourth a bit too close to third and fifth being not all that useful for track work. Partial solution is to install a 4.42 final drive in place of the 4.08.

Here is a video of that old set up on the LeMons racer being chased by a Porsche 928 for about 20 minutes to the end of the race. We finished 5th overall in that one.. So, yes the exxe make a pretty good race car if the rules will allow it and the precisely proper modifications done with the chassis set up by some one with proper expertise and a group of very good drivers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY3GrqRey-k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQx2LsRpmGc&list=UURC88KYsXcGH7jY17JU9T9g


Bernice

bg82x said:

I was not clear on my previous statement. I have no intentions of using anything other than a Fiat X1/9 power plant.

My plan from the beginning was to be competitive in class C and work towards a class victory. After my first attempt I was even more determined to show that an X could be competitive even though the class winner the first time was a V6 car. I took a lot of crap after the first attempt from the organizers, judges, and mostly from the car & driver team. I really enjoyed the 2nd attempt when they saw I still had the same setup as the first race. Then ran 1000% better than the first time. The IOE was just icing on the cake.

I was referring to coming up with a more reliable master/slave clutch setup. In two races I have gone through 2 of each and still they did not hold up. This most recent failure looks like it's the slave which was recently replaced for the 2nd time.

My next attempt will be just improving what I can with my current 1300 setup. I realize it will take some luck and a lot more experience to achieve a class victory, but that's what makes it interesting and rewarding to me.

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Good stuff. I still really admire OP for finishing and that IOE!

I concur lemons is about fun so what you and the team want to drive is very important....pretty much most of it.

I 2nd that you shouldnt be having clutch issues with 1300 unless someone is riding it. I do think though that If you cant get a good slave you could maybe try a better built racing part or resleeving.

I still like the idea of staying with the fiat power train, I just dont like it in practice. We still use it because we are invested in parts and experience and also like the idea of making the best out of it. I will admit after doing much of what Bernice said above our car ran great, but after popping a cooling hose and melting that engine we brought spares the next time. our team concluded it is not worth spending so much time and money rebuilding an engine of that caliber after we blew number 2 due to head gasket. The 3rd engine was stock but not rebuilt... it should have been...its all good but I had near mutiny on several occasions.

The chassis though is awesome and we love it. Brakes and clutch have never been issues. We run stock front calipers all around with a bias adjuster and either hawk or porterfield pads.

Suspension we use stiff springs and rebuilt hydraulic units.

Finishing races without being in pits is the most fun so however you do that...stick with what works!

Awsome

way to go Fiat X19 best little car ever made awesome news

One most important note about LeMons racing..

The car must be in mechanically PERFECT, better than new condition. This includes hoses, all the oily bits and related. This is a hard core endurance race that will stress every item in the car to beyond it's limits.

Any item on the race car that is marginal, poorly engineered, in less than perfect condition can and will fail resulting in less fun.

Install better than new parts that will stand up to endurance race duty, don't try to be Lemon-zieee, use cheap or old parts that will die. This is asking for big trouble. Don't worry about Jay and staff and possible penalties, if they like the car.. anything goes. It is that simple. So what if they ding you with a zillion laps, in the context of FUN, it makes no difference.

There are those who enjoy wrenching on their LeMons ride at the track, I'm not one of them. My idea of the having a good time at LeMons is to never wrench on the car except for driver change, fuel and maybe tires.

There will come a day when some LeMons team will bring a old pro prepped NASCAR or similar to LeMons, properly prepare it and race it.

Personally, I would love to see high buck serious ex LeMans endurance race cars run at LeMons..


Bernice