Correction: Aluminum Radiator. Worth the investment?
- Thread starter Felipe
- Start date
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Aluminum has good heat transfer characteristics. Among the best metals, 2nd to copper.
Aluminum is much lighter and stronger than copper, so there's more room available for additional rows having thinner heat transfer tubes.
Less expensive metal too. :thumbsup:
Aluminum has good heat transfer characteristics. Among the best metals, 2nd to copper.
Aluminum is much lighter and stronger than copper, so there's more room available for additional rows having thinner heat transfer tubes.
Less expensive metal too. :thumbsup:
Last edited:
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
Never heard of a stainless radiator...
They are usually brass/copper or aluminum.
Did you mean a stainless steel coolant overflow tank?
Pete
They are usually brass/copper or aluminum.
Did you mean a stainless steel coolant overflow tank?
Pete
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
Pete-Bob, or Bob-Pete, Filipe meant to say ALUMINUM...
But I must say...
I was rinsing out Shadow's water bowl today and used hot water... Its a SS bowl and I was amazed at how hot the bowl got as if it were aluminum or brass.
I too have never heard of a SS radiator as well and also don't know where in the food-chain stainless resides when it comes to heat conductivity. I do notice that HEAT and ELECTRICAL conductivity of materials appears to be directly proportional.
Googling the subject seems to show Bob was NOT lying (this time) and my assumption of electrical and heat conductivity is mostly true also.
This one is in French, but the idea is the same...
But I must say...
I was rinsing out Shadow's water bowl today and used hot water... Its a SS bowl and I was amazed at how hot the bowl got as if it were aluminum or brass.
I too have never heard of a SS radiator as well and also don't know where in the food-chain stainless resides when it comes to heat conductivity. I do notice that HEAT and ELECTRICAL conductivity of materials appears to be directly proportional.
Googling the subject seems to show Bob was NOT lying (this time) and my assumption of electrical and heat conductivity is mostly true also.
This one is in French, but the idea is the same...
geekdaddy
X1/9 Learner's Permit...
Absolutely yes... I have a well documented concern about air intrusion in my system. With the BobG aluminum radiator my system stays at 190 regardless of the outdoor heat. The OEM radiator performs well with no air in it but my temp gauge creeps up a bit with air in it on really hot days.
+1 on an aluminum
My 85 would heat up in traffic. PO told me it had some type of cooling issue he could not resolve. Having seen this before I figured it was just an old radiator issue. I tried bleeding the system, etc, etc first, then switched out the stock rad for a BobG aluminum and now the car has no cooling issues. The temp gauge rarely sees 190 unless I let it sit in one place and idle for a long time.
I will also say that if you can find a new stock radiator, it will work really well too. Years ago I got a new stock rad from Chris O for my 78 that had the creeping temp issue. The new stock rad solved that problem.
In both cases the issue was a radiator that was old and crusty on the inside. So a new radiator, stock or aluminum, will be well worth the investment if you are having frequent temp issues.
My 85 would heat up in traffic. PO told me it had some type of cooling issue he could not resolve. Having seen this before I figured it was just an old radiator issue. I tried bleeding the system, etc, etc first, then switched out the stock rad for a BobG aluminum and now the car has no cooling issues. The temp gauge rarely sees 190 unless I let it sit in one place and idle for a long time.
I will also say that if you can find a new stock radiator, it will work really well too. Years ago I got a new stock rad from Chris O for my 78 that had the creeping temp issue. The new stock rad solved that problem.
In both cases the issue was a radiator that was old and crusty on the inside. So a new radiator, stock or aluminum, will be well worth the investment if you are having frequent temp issues.
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
OE radiator is steel tubes, copper fins and copper tanks....it is also a tubular core where the fins are a straight piece with the tubes passing thru them... and has a very high "fins per inch" count.
Cheaper replacement cores are of the concertina type... where the fin simply 'concertina's" between the tubes... far less efficient at dissipating heat.
OE radiator will actually cool better than an alloy replacement, but expect it to be more expensive... (and not made in China or Mexico)
SteveC
Cheaper replacement cores are of the concertina type... where the fin simply 'concertina's" between the tubes... far less efficient at dissipating heat.
OE radiator will actually cool better than an alloy replacement, but expect it to be more expensive... (and not made in China or Mexico)
SteveC
Interesting subject, copper or Aluminum
From a heat conduction standpoint, I know copper is near top of the list. Aluminum is up there too, but from a dissipation standpoint, aluminum (from what I've observed) seems to top copper in popularity.
Case & point: Aluminum cores in rad's seem more in demand these days, not just because of material cost or weight.
Home baseboard heating: uses copper pipe to 'deliver' and aluminum fins to dissipate.
Computer core coolers: Uses copper to conduct the heat, aluminum to dissipate. Again, not because of cost or weight. (folks pay plenty for these and would be willing to pay more for better heat dissipation.)
There are good heat conductors, then there are good heat radiators. Obviously, conduction has a lot to do with it.
Note: I am not an expert at this, (That's why we have Tony :grin: ) just making an observation.
From a heat conduction standpoint, I know copper is near top of the list. Aluminum is up there too, but from a dissipation standpoint, aluminum (from what I've observed) seems to top copper in popularity.
Case & point: Aluminum cores in rad's seem more in demand these days, not just because of material cost or weight.
Home baseboard heating: uses copper pipe to 'deliver' and aluminum fins to dissipate.
Computer core coolers: Uses copper to conduct the heat, aluminum to dissipate. Again, not because of cost or weight. (folks pay plenty for these and would be willing to pay more for better heat dissipation.)
There are good heat conductors, then there are good heat radiators. Obviously, conduction has a lot to do with it.
Note: I am not an expert at this, (That's why we have Tony :grin: ) just making an observation.
myronx19
True Classic
I still have the OE unit up front, has never been out of the car. I hope that it is still useful for the turbo transplant, but I will have it cleaned properly and tested for leaks (none now, it's quite like new).
I was considering to switch to an aluminum one, but perhaps the OE unit in good condition is still going to be the better option as a heat exchanger.
I was considering to switch to an aluminum one, but perhaps the OE unit in good condition is still going to be the better option as a heat exchanger.
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
Copper is a better conductor than aluminium. It will give lower temperatures for the same size and shape heat sink.
The reason aluminium is used are as follows. It is significantly cheaper as a base metal. The weight of a copper heat sink the size and shape of the larger aluminium models would break your circuit boards.
More than material it really comes down to surface area... I.e. Fins per inch and width when we are talking about car radiators...but between the two identical radiators one made from copper and one made from aluminium... the copper one will cool better.
SteveC
The reason aluminium is used are as follows. It is significantly cheaper as a base metal. The weight of a copper heat sink the size and shape of the larger aluminium models would break your circuit boards.
More than material it really comes down to surface area... I.e. Fins per inch and width when we are talking about car radiators...but between the two identical radiators one made from copper and one made from aluminium... the copper one will cool better.
SteveC
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
I have installed several aluminum radiators in my X's and Scorpions
They cool great, I would definitely recommend one.
It's a bit simplistic to say "copper cools better than aluminum". Copper may have better heat dissipation characteristics than aluminum, that is true. But that's a bit like saying "steel is stronger than aluminum". Well, yes it is, but that doesn't mean aluminum has no place. It means that when you design the radiator, you play to the materials strength.
In other words, if you designed 2 identical radiators, yes the copper one would cool better than the aluminum one. However, if you design to the materials strengths, the aluminum one can cool just as well or better, and it's lighter and stronger to boot.
Here is an article that describes the differences better than I can.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-0211-aluminum-or-copper-radiator-for-your-car/
Hope this helps.
Pete
They cool great, I would definitely recommend one.
It's a bit simplistic to say "copper cools better than aluminum". Copper may have better heat dissipation characteristics than aluminum, that is true. But that's a bit like saying "steel is stronger than aluminum". Well, yes it is, but that doesn't mean aluminum has no place. It means that when you design the radiator, you play to the materials strength.
In other words, if you designed 2 identical radiators, yes the copper one would cool better than the aluminum one. However, if you design to the materials strengths, the aluminum one can cool just as well or better, and it's lighter and stronger to boot.
Here is an article that describes the differences better than I can.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-0211-aluminum-or-copper-radiator-for-your-car/
Hope this helps.
Pete
jvandyke
True Classic
So there's several variables;
condition: old dirty clogged vs. new
material; copper, aluminum
design; fin arrangement and number and such, flow design
Anything new would beat anything old and partially clogged most likely.
A new OEM would be competitive with any other design it seems.
A properly cleaned and repaired OEM rad is a viable choice it would seem, if you can still get that kind of work done.
condition: old dirty clogged vs. new
material; copper, aluminum
design; fin arrangement and number and such, flow design
Anything new would beat anything old and partially clogged most likely.
A new OEM would be competitive with any other design it seems.
A properly cleaned and repaired OEM rad is a viable choice it would seem, if you can still get that kind of work done.
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
Aluminium lends itself to much fancier extrusions... and if the tubes were extruded to have additional fins internally (to give more internal surface area to allow for greater heat transfer) then I would agree entirely...that's one of the biggest differences in upmarket intercoolers for example, the use of extruded internally finned tubes to give minimum flow resistance and maximum surface area... but do you think a chinese manufactured alloy radiator is going to get that fancy?
That's the reason radiator tubes are a flattened oval shape... more surface area exposed per unit of internal volume...it always is going to come down to surface area... more of that is always going to cool (transfer heat) better than less... the medium (air) only pulls so much heat out of anything... airflow and area determine heat dissipation.
I have a BobG radiator at home (still in it's box I haven't even opened it yet) that I'm using on my race X19...for it's weight saving...When I get home from work in a few days I'll measure the fins and count them...I have several used OE radiators on the shelf and will do the same for one of those...
Base metal prices is what drives OEM decisions to go for alloy radiators these days... todays price on the LME for alumimium alloy is $1680 US$ per tonne,copper is 5175 US$ a tonne ... about three times the price.
SteveC
That's the reason radiator tubes are a flattened oval shape... more surface area exposed per unit of internal volume...it always is going to come down to surface area... more of that is always going to cool (transfer heat) better than less... the medium (air) only pulls so much heat out of anything... airflow and area determine heat dissipation.
I have a BobG radiator at home (still in it's box I haven't even opened it yet) that I'm using on my race X19...for it's weight saving...When I get home from work in a few days I'll measure the fins and count them...I have several used OE radiators on the shelf and will do the same for one of those...
Base metal prices is what drives OEM decisions to go for alloy radiators these days... todays price on the LME for alumimium alloy is $1680 US$ per tonne,copper is 5175 US$ a tonne ... about three times the price.
SteveC
WildWilly
True Classic
We'll soon find out....
I've purchased the all aluminum rad from Vicks and it will be going in shortly. We're hoping to have the car running soon. I ordered 2 fans, we're going to put one fan on the switch and the second fan on a manual switch on the dash, if by chance I see the temp going up (bumper to bumper traffic) I can turn on the second fan, but we're hoping a single fan will do the job. I'll know more in a week or two when she's up and running, and I will be driving like crazy to get as much time in the seat before the snow flies. From everything I've read it is worth the investment. Cheers...
I've purchased the all aluminum rad from Vicks and it will be going in shortly. We're hoping to have the car running soon. I ordered 2 fans, we're going to put one fan on the switch and the second fan on a manual switch on the dash, if by chance I see the temp going up (bumper to bumper traffic) I can turn on the second fan, but we're hoping a single fan will do the job. I'll know more in a week or two when she's up and running, and I will be driving like crazy to get as much time in the seat before the snow flies. From everything I've read it is worth the investment. Cheers...
Black-Tooth
Tony Natoli
For .25 cents I'll tell you a secret...
Put your CC number here _______-_________-________-_________
1. Wire the fans in parallel so they operate together. They will cool and cycle about 4 times faster, better, and easier.
2. Do run the auxiliary switch so you can turn them on manually if you wish. I did, but with both fans wired in parallel I never need to use it. Its a comfort though, and is only a few bucks for the switch and/or wire.
Now that I think about it, that's TWO TIPS... so you owe me .50 cents.
Put your CC number here _______-_________-________-_________
1. Wire the fans in parallel so they operate together. They will cool and cycle about 4 times faster, better, and easier.
2. Do run the auxiliary switch so you can turn them on manually if you wish. I did, but with both fans wired in parallel I never need to use it. Its a comfort though, and is only a few bucks for the switch and/or wire.
Now that I think about it, that's TWO TIPS... so you owe me .50 cents.
Dan Sarandrea (Phila)
Waitin' On Parts...
The original (I assume it was original, it was a Sipea brand) rad in my '86 had steel fins, they rusted.
fiatfactory
Steve Cecchele
OE is IPRA brand on everything I've worked on (lots of 78 to 82's here in Oz)
SteveC
SteveC
WildWilly
True Classic
my install experience
last night we installed the new VAS aluminum rad, it was not exactly a quick and easy job. I've had this saying for years that the president/owner of companies should be required to assemble/install their own products, think BBQ, this rule applies here for sure. There were issues. The rad is slightly taller than the original and then there is the centre stud at the top that lines up with the hole in the front of our cars. That stud is in the wrong place on my new rad, its too close to the front of the rad and a little off center. The only thing we could do was remove the panel that is behind the rad and cut it to allow more space. It also sits a little to one side, luckily, it is not enough to interfere with the air release that goes to the frunk. The rad is in and the panel is back in, the panel sits right between the two fans. Aside from that, we're expecting the rad to be a great addition.
last night we installed the new VAS aluminum rad, it was not exactly a quick and easy job. I've had this saying for years that the president/owner of companies should be required to assemble/install their own products, think BBQ, this rule applies here for sure. There were issues. The rad is slightly taller than the original and then there is the centre stud at the top that lines up with the hole in the front of our cars. That stud is in the wrong place on my new rad, its too close to the front of the rad and a little off center. The only thing we could do was remove the panel that is behind the rad and cut it to allow more space. It also sits a little to one side, luckily, it is not enough to interfere with the air release that goes to the frunk. The rad is in and the panel is back in, the panel sits right between the two fans. Aside from that, we're expecting the rad to be a great addition.