78 X, Should I Call MB or Build My Own

I have an all stock 1978 X19 still with big bumpers and all. Lately been thinking about replacing the engine with 1500, I'm not a racer, just a weekend driver, but I want something with a little better performance. I'm not an expert on X19 but I build an engine for 1979 camaro before, Midwest Bayless have good reputations and maybe they could build me one. Anybody here ever bought a performance engine from MB before? Anyway, not sure if I want to build my own or have a pro build one for me. What are your thoughts? And what are your opinion on dual carbs vs single carb? What about FI? Where do I find 5 speed tranny? I have a budget of about 5k-6k, is that enough? Thanks

My 78 and my 85 both have MWC 1500/FI setups

Hey paesano

MWB can definitely build you a really nice performance engine. Anywhere from mild to wild. I believe Vick's also sells built engines, but I have no experience with theirs. There are other Fiat engine builders out there and hopefully people will provide the proper contact info.

Carb or FI is really a matter of what you want out of the car. FI is more forgiving in day to day ( or weekend to weekend) drive-ability, but I believe you can develop more power with a carb setup. Whether to build it yourself or let the pros do it is more a matter of personal knowledge and free time .vs. getting it done ASAP without a lot of headaches. I think your budget will allow you to go in either direction.

I currently have one of each, personal project and pro-built. I have a 78 and an 85, both with similar 1500/FI engines with MWB performance heads and 35/75 cams. The 85 is a runner and the engine was rebuilt/upgraded by MWB for the PO of the car, so it was in there when I got the X. It runs really well and I can tell it has more power than a stock 1500/FI engine. It isn't scary fast, just a nice bump in power.

The 78 is currently a non-runner and I am supposed to be finishing up my swap from 1300/carb to a 1500/FI. I thought it would be a cool project to build the engine up myself, even though I had never done anything like it before. I bit off more than I could chew. My lack of knowledge and skills along with Real Life and my extreme laziness have conspired against me. Chalk it up to a learning experience.

I did get it all together, but never got it wired or plumbed completely. The completed engine in the 78 looks great just sitting there though. Hopefully, when I eventually fire it up it won't burn to the ground. :sigh:

Paesan', send $6000 to my PP address and I'll fix ya right up!

HA!

Just a short analogy here first... I once had a co-worker who wanted to retire to either Alaska or Hawaii.

If you didn't get the gist of that yet, send me the money!

OK, I'll tell ya... He really had no damn idea what he wanted or where he wanted to live!

Your questions kinda allude to the same thing and as I have said here 100 times (ad nauseum to my old friends), you must first decide what you want the car for, or what you want it to do, or what the THEME of your car is to be, whether it actually does the part of how it looks or not. Also if you wanna ticker or just write checks for now, or for the life of the car?

Performance... usually means power and speed, but could also mean comfort and miles-per-gallon.

Asking for the opinions here of which way you should go will result in at least TWO for every ONE belly button, and about 10 from me alone.

Some like the 1300 and can make it SING... as there ain't nuttin' like the sound of a couple of Webers with the throttles WIDE open firing through a 4 into 1 header and a FAZA 4-tip exhaust... whether or not the car is going anywhere...

Then you can park it and tune the carbs every 15 miles or 15 minutes, whichever comes first.

Others love the comfort of an A/C equipped 1500 with FI and the quiet of a Camaro muffler with duals and simply change the oil every 6 months. Some have installed aftermarket FI and tune from their iPhone.

So, I said all that to simply say this... If you don't know what you want or where you wanna go, then all the info or opinions given will not necessarily help you. They might enlighten you though.

Welcome anyway... hopefully we can help you decide!

OK, fair enough Tony

I guess I needed to be more clear when I said just a weekend driving and no racing. I also want it to be reliable ie get in start up and go, and be able to go faster when I feel like it. A little tinkering is OK but not pull over to tune the carbs every 15 minutes. As far as comforts? No AC and no radio, just the sound of the motor is all I need. That's it, nothing fancy, no body mod, I rather not spend money on my 1300 engine to make it sing. Build one myself sounds like fun but I still have a full time job, so this could take a while. So MB or Vicks is the way to go for me. Thanks

Paul

Build it.

If you can build an engine for a Camaro you can build the Fiat SOHC. If you want better performance you can get it the same way you would any other engine. But dont expect a huge bump in power, its not going to happen. Careful selection of parts, accurate machining, and good assembly technique will get you a nice, peppy, engine. There is a lot of good info here. The folks who participate have lots of good advice. Set reasonable expectations, have a reasonable budget. Know how much you'll put up with, know what you'll use it for. A dual carb engine has better potential, but a single carb engine can make very good power. A dual carb engine costs lots more, has a lot more set-up and maitenance cost too. A turbo is a bolt in afair, if you can find the right donor engine. There are lots of options, the more realistic you are the happier you'll be. Dont be afraid to ask lots of questions!

Based on what you said here... I think...

a late model 1500 FI would be what you want for a dependable driver with a bit more power.

Tinker... you don't need to have a pro do the swap as it is essentially a "bolt in" along with a 5 speed. You will need a donor car that had no damage in the REAR. You'll want the engine, trans, lower A-Arms and hubs, gas tank and the FI and Ignition harnesses. I would also take the entire wiring harness and upgrade yours.

Cost could almost be FREE or a few hundred for the entire car.

But you could also ship both cars and have it done for not that much money. You will have much more comfort and maybe 15 more HP which is a lot considering... but you can also work on the other side of the equation by ADDING, LESS weight... and a performance cool air intake and a better exhaust.

I dunno if anything short of a 240 HP K20 conversion would please you, but that is a ton of work and about $20K or more to have done plus you supply the engine and trans! (Some of these guys are tossing on blowers and turbos as well... Haven't seen a nitrous system yet...)

As I said earlier though... there are a ton of choices and options... good luck with yours and send PHOTOS!

I'm gonna build it

MB don't build engines anymore, but after talking to Matt today he got me so excited that I'm gonna build my own, been many years (1982) since I've put one together but this would be a good way for me to learn and have fun and self satisfaction at the same time.

We talked about parts and they seem to have everything I need. Gonna go with one of their performance head, and all new pistons from them, he suggest I keep my stock 32 carb but if I can find 34 I should go with that. for headers I'll go with Allison.

Tony, can you explain why I need to swap gas tank? Could you explain lower A-arms and hubs, is it because of the bigger block? Also wiring harness upgrade, why?

That's all the questions I have for now. The search begin for a 1500 block.

OH... you mean yur gonna build a 1500!

If you were gonna go with a 1500 with FUEL INJECTION (FI) then you will NEED the following:

1. The entire FI set up and all related controls and parts.
2. The FI Computer, Ignition Module, and all interconnectiog cables.
3. An Electric Fuel Pump

... and SHOULD have:

1. The 5 - Speed Transmission
2. The Lower Control Arms, Axles and Hubs

... and SHOULD have, but not absolutely required:

1. FI Gas Tank that feeds from the bottom.
2. The STOCK Electric Fuel Pump.
3. All STOCK associated Relays
4. The entire Wiring Harness and late model Fuse Box.

As for the WHYS...

1. PUMPS - 99% of all electric fuel pumps draw from the bottom of the tank as electrics (either type) have more PUSH than PULL. On carbed X1/9s where folks have replaced their mechanical pumps with electrics, it appears that there is no problem using the older tank that draws from the top... as carbs only need 3 1/2 PSI, FI requires about 30 PSI and it might be a problem.

BUT, if you run a carb on a 1500, you need not to be concerned and EITHER stock tank or an aftermarket tank will do.

2. A-ARMS, AXLES and HUBS - for a 5-speed are different than a 4 speed. If you keep your 4 speed than nothing hasta be changed except the flywheel and/or starter... More on this later. If you go with an entire 1500 5-Speed swap, which I would recommend, then for a BOLT IN swap you'll need the hubs, axles and A-Arms. One COULD cut the existing 4 speed axles and weld on the 5 speed ends.

Bottom line... (sorry for all the confusion...) If you keep the trans and suspension stock, you just need to change the flywheel and starter. If you update to the 5 speed, its best (easier) to replace the hubs, axles and A-Arms as well.

3. If you go with FI, then you will NEED the associated harnesses, and TWO electronic modules for it to work and install EASILY. If you go with a carb... then most of what you have already on the 1300 will work on the 1500. And yes, the block is a wee bit taller and may require a modification or replacement of the top DOGBONE mount. (I just don't know this for sure.)

As for the remainder of the wiring, the later model fuse box and relays are far superior than the older ceramic fuses and easier to find.

(I see you have read my last post thoroughly and I appreciate that. Same with this one as there is a ton of stuff to discuss and lots of directions to go even when you have chosen to do the work yourself. I commend you for that... but do hereby WARN YOU NOW! Ask about every move FIRST. Some things that you would do on a Chevy are 180 degrees opposite on this car. We can save you a bunch of time, money and frustration. Phone me if you WANT, 661-296-7277 between 9 and 9.)

LASTLY... do this FIRST!

1. Check your local laws for Smog Requirements if there are any. Check with a Referee if necessary and gain PRIOR approval for the mod you are about to do. (In CA this would be the way to go on '76 and later cars... but to date, I know no one that has actually done it, they stick with '75 and older cars and can modify them as they are exempt. Your state may exempt yours just on age.)

2. Stock, Carbed 1500 X1/9s were 1979 and SOME 1980 models ONLY.

3. All Intake and exhaust manifolds SHOULD work on 1300 and 1500s or can be made to work.

4. Matt's BVH are only for 1500's and will make a noticeable difference in performance. They really work best with a cam, headers, and free flow cool-air intakes.

I think I better stop here before I over saturate you...

SEND PHOTOS!

Wow, Good Info

Thanks Tony, really good stuff.
Yes it will be 1500 block with 5 speed transmission. I decided to go with a single carb system, performance head and cam from MB. Im in NV so not a problem with smog on older cars.

As soon as I can find a 1500 block I'll take it to a machine shop to have it hone and true. After that I'll start buying parts. Thanks again.

Paul

You know where to find a good 1500 block.. My place.. I think I have 5 or 6 of these....

Yur welcome, remember to ASK first before you buy or...

do anything!

As for machinists too... one would have to be FAMILIAR with this engine as well... and not just someone who hones, decks and bores 350 Chevy's for a living.

I would at least call John Edwards at Costa Mesa R&D and ask his "opinion" remembering always, "Never ask a barber if he thinks you need a haircut."

HA! He should be honest enough to tell you what you or your local machinist should look for or be aware of. You could possibly turn a "non-interference" 1500 block into one that is!

He may also be a good source as a builder or supplier. Look him up on his website and view some of his videos as well. Tell 'um Tony sent ya... (He doesn't know me, but what the hell, I may need a favor from him down the line and in any case, he probably knows a bunch of Tonys anyway working in this specialty...)

Oh... did I forget to remind you to send PHOTOS? (or else!)

If you are wanting to go with a mostly stock 1500, would it be easiest to sell you '78 and buy a late model Bertone? Maybe down the road you could slowly invest in more performance upgrades all the while not getting over your head. I am going down your path with a 78 but using mostly upper end upgrades with a 1500 head, aftermarket cam and keeping the 1300 block and 4 speed. However I am doing a lot more machine work than originally expected and it is taking many times longer than I had planned as well.

Trading for a Bertone model could save you a lot of time and many a headache.

MikeHynes said:

Build it.

If you can build an engine for a Camaro you can build the Fiat SOHC. If you want better performance you can get it the same way you would any other engine. But dont expect a huge bump in power, its not going to happen. Careful selection of parts, accurate machining, and good assembly technique will get you a nice, peppy, engine. There is a lot of good info here. The folks who participate have lots of good advice. Set reasonable expectations, have a reasonable budget. Know how much you'll put up with, know what you'll use it for. A dual carb engine has better potential, but a single carb engine can make very good power. A dual carb engine costs lots more, has a lot more set-up and maitenance cost too. There are lots of options, the more realistic you are the happier you'll be. Dont be afraid to ask lots of questions!

Click to expand...

+1 on all this, Mike's pretty well nailed it...but I would add...

Start with a 1500 core engine... block/crank/rods and build it up out of the car ready to swap over... that way you can continue driving and enjoying your X19 and not be under any time pressure. Set yourself a reasonable time frame, that gives you a chance to budget a little each month and buy parts as needed. Come up with a plan for your build, and stick to it...spend time doing a 'paper build' and deciding what you want to achieve and how to best get there.

SteveC

Get a '79-80 X1/9. From where Im sitting; its really the best bang for the buck (not to mention the best years for X1/9s, despite how others may try to say otherwise. You get an instant increase in TQ, which is really what these cars need. Stock for stock Im divided as to 1300 or 1500. Theyre both slow and weak as crap. One revs and sounds sweet and one can go on the highway without sounding like its going to explode, that's about the differences between the two, stock to stock. But no-one leaves either stock, and from that standpoint: the '79-80 is going to be the winner every time! Even with the later "Bertone" crowd pleading otherwise. The '79-80 years give you the best of all the X19 worlds. You get an updated yet still very italian interior. IMO The later cars interiors look more like a Hyundai or some other car trying to be something it isnt. You get the 5spd trans (even though I personally love the 4sd), you get the afore mentioned bump in TQ, added electronic ignition (no more points like your '78!!) and you keep the carbs!! The power potential is far better on a carbd 1500 then its later FI sibling (unless your working with the budget of Saudi Arabia or not staying naturally aspirated ), plus you get the ease of maintenance from carburetors. The Fi guys will attempt to scream "its more reliable.." ... its not. If you have your carb set up properly, it will not need adjusting very often or at all, it will start and run everytime, and if something does go wrong, you can pop it off in under 5 minutes, have it completely stripped in another 10, and most likely figure out the issue, in another 10-20mins..... do a search on the issues the Fi guys run into Ahahaha! Get an early manual choke carb and you use it to tune your A/F mix and also aid in troubleshooting. Oh and when either system sets un used for long periods of time, they tend to not work well. Its just how things work. With a carburetor; there again, pop it off, replace a gasket and diaphragm, spray some cleaner and lube up some levers, then your off enjoying your car. Bosch jetronic does not like sitting and you can search through the archives of various issues and troubles. Not that the Fi is aweful, because its not. But the headache to performance to reliability equation, my experience is that the carb is far superior. Now speaking of fuel injection that doesn't like sitting un used; The old CIS system was so much worse, but thats different cars like VWs and Mercedes, and a different level of hell, which we wont go there. I love CIS btw, but Ill leave it at that. Really all this conjecture and opinion is arbitrary. You need to decide what you want from the car. As to your original question about having MWB build you a motor: sure, why not? Should you attempt to build one yourself? Sure, why not? You asked about dual carbs. Shamless plug, but Im currently selling a dual set up, for pretty cheap. Ive never run duals, so I cant speak as to reliability or what theyre like to live with. I would think the potential for less reliability and increased headaches is there, but I also would think that if set up properly, they should be just as fine as a single, except sound better and convert fuel to noise in a much more rapid fashion.

PS: Sell the '78 and get a '79-80

Jump onto one of these engines.... https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/pts/6131284225.html ... the 1500 looks like it's had some sort of prep done.... headstuds/vernier cam gear etc etc... surely a candidate.

SteveC

Of course the OP's post was from March of 2015, so I bet the decision on how to proceed has been made.

JimD said:

Of course the OP's post was from March of 2015, so I bet the decision on how to proceed has been made.

Click to expand...

Didn't read that, Jim... My advise and opinion remains the same, regardless. Lol

I know Mike, all the new advice is sound and I almost posted "again" this morning. Then I noticed I already replied back in 2015. So I was waiting for a while to see how many people would add on... especially for someone that already posted back in 2015. That didn't happened and it ruined all the fun.

I would have done it for you, Jim, just to humor you. It looks like a topic I would have replied to then as well, but I think I was on one of my hiatus from the X19 life in '15??

No one has mentioned that putting the 1500 engine in a '78 or any year up to '78 requires some modification the the bulkhead for the extra length of the 5-speed gearbox. Some people just bang on the sheet metal for the required clearance or you can cut and weld some formed sheet metal.