The Multi Air Project

Long Post

Sandgroper said:
Thank you Tony

I regret if I am appearing to doubt your method or the concept of keeping an intact stock power unit, I'm honestly just exploring options. I stupidly let a wreck pass as I thought it would never fit in an X 1/9 ( and you have so clearly proved it can be done) so I only have other folks cars and the Interwebs to prepare any crafty plan whilst I wait for some poor sod to wreck their 500..





That you determined the turbo unit will be in the way of the shifters is a worry for me. I had no idea that the gear linkage was so tall/bulky. Will take a better look next time I get under the bonnet of one of these. But in the meantime here's a few images of the C510, which part is of concern?

*5-Spd C510 Manual*
5_Spd_C510_Manual.jpg


*Transaxle Assembly*
Transaxle_Assembly.jpg


*Gear Shift Cable And Bracket*
Gear_Shift_Cable_And_Bracket.jpg





I am left to assume that you just made a bracket for the LH chassis rail to fit this (below) instead of emulating a dogbone. You have to support the GB on this side anyway so I just wondered if this was enough to limit the powertrains dynamic torque movement on decel' / acceleration. The less this motor moves the less allowance for body clearances it needs.

w3paa9hu5

http://postimg.org/image/w3paa9hu5/

WRT the faults your getting, the output signals that the ECU makes into making a little more boost - using resistors will set a fault quickly since that will adjust the signal all the time. You need to change the ECU flash to do this reliably, if you want some hints PM me and I will point you at an interesting development this year. No 2014 2015 MY programing available yet as the Protocols are yet to be decrypted, but your older system is probably already mapped.

FWIW

Resetting the Abarth ECU

Disconnect Neg & Pos Battery terminals
Hold down brake pedal for >15 seconds
Let sit disconnected for 10 min
Reconnect Battery Terminals
Put key in & turn to on (don't start)
Wait one minute
(don't touch gas, make sure a/c is off)
Turn off
Start car (don't touch gas)
Let idle for about 3 minutes
Drive for around for 70 miles (keep it below 4k rpm - no sport mode)

Bottom line. If the clock in the EVIC has not been reset and flashing after reconnecting the battery, the ECU has not been reset.



In Response.


Thanks for the long post and the thought behind it. If I were to post the 300+ or so pictures I have taken of this project and release the progress videos with the 36 pages of notes, pin outs and complete set of as built wiring diagrams, my statements would be clear and a unified understanding of the project would be shared by all that view this form. Currently I am not there yet.

While at Freak Out Greg from Euro Compulsion came out into the parking lot and looked at the car. He also joined me for a trip around the block and in a mall parking lot. He was hanging on and smiling.

The X is 400 pounds lighter than the Abarth, I had the car weighed at the Certified scales. Cost me $15 to do it. That is about 15% lighter than the Abarth. The car is also lower. The car is running on the stock ECU and program. The X is better suited for this HP as it throws the weight back and the car squats down as the power and torque come on and this keeps the wheels planted.

The Main issue I currently have is that the ignition coils get hot under the hood of the car's engine bay. This causes a misfire when the car is hot, the ECU then locks out the fuel to the offending cylinder and well, the engine is now running on 3 cylinders. In Greg's words, solve that problem and you have it. Then all tuning platforms can be adjusted and then some, just like the Stock Abarth car.

The shifting cable and transmission issue you are asking about. Simply you are looking at the problem ( I am saying there is a problem as you are looking at it ) and forgetting that the engine is in the back of the car, it is not in the front of the car.

As for the ECU reset again you are spelling it out to me as if this engine is in an Abarth Car, again it is not.

Lastly, if you move the turbo charger above the transmission... then where are you going to mount the intercooler?

Of all of the challenges this whole project has put before me I am totally disappointed in the ignition coil heating problem. In this day and age electronics doing this simple function should not be heat sensitive. Currently to resolve this issue leaves me with 2 venues. 1) is to box, insulate and force ventilate the 4 coils, 2) the other is to replace them with different coils that are not heat sensitive at reasonable cost. Gregg admitted to me that even the tuned Abarth's are seeing this problem. Better coils would be the best solution but in simplicity force cooling them is something that can be done quickly without a lot of thought.

As for tuning programs, aftermarket these are designed for mass market sales and until just recently consideration of putting this engine in another car was not a thought or path to think about programming or deleting lines of code in the Stock ECU.

At FFO 2012 in Virginia Fiat sent out a high level Rep. to talk to us about the brand and the car. Many asked about what cars would be on the horizon, I cornered him as he was leaving and asked if it would be possible to purchase a Crate Engine and Gear Box, he had never considered it, but replied anything to sell parts is a possibility. Well as stories go, I really dislike people telling me what I want to hear and not following up on their words. So I took this matter into my own hands and you can see the result.

All 3 engine mounting points are maintained in the X transplant.

The first 100 miles on the car were all short trips of a few miles. The next 100 miles were longer and that is where the ignition coils heating up brought out problems and short comings that I did not expect. If the engine cools down while being driven, the dead cylinder comes back and all is well until the heat under the hood comes back up and a coil pack throws a code to the ECU. Then back to 3 cylinders, this is nerve racking.

Want a laugh, I stopped at the side of the road, put ice cubes on the coils and 2 minutes latter the engine was good to go. These are the kind of things I have to resort to when trouble shooting.

I am an electrician and have worked with programmable logic controllers and ECU is a programmable controller.

Sometimes when you have a problem all that you do is jump out some lines of code to isolate each problem one at a time, here the program is there, but I do not have access to it, so I have to fool it into doing what I need it to do.

For now I have been at this for 18 months and stuff around the house is needing attention. I have some reading to do about this ignition problem, but if anyone has a suggestion post it. I just fear the amount of reading this may lead to and the limited time I currently have to address this problem.

Thanks for all of the kind comments, I am not where I would have liked to be on this project at this time, but your interest in my work on this transplant is my inspiration.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
Click to expand...
 
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TonyK said:
The Main issue I currently have is that the ignition coils get hot under the hood of the car's engine bay. This causes a misfire when the car is hot, the ECU then locks out the fuel to the offending cylinder and well, the engine is now running on 3 cylinders. In Greg's words, solve that problem and you have it. Then all tuning platforms can be adjusted and then some, just like the Stock Abarth car.

...

Of all of the challenges this whole project has put before me I am totally disappointed in the ignition coil heating problem. In this day and age electronics doing this simple function should not be heat sensitive. Currently to resolve this issue leaves me with 2 venues. 1) is to box, insulate and force ventilate the 4 coils, 2) the other is to replace them with different coils that are not heat sensitive at reasonable cost. Gregg admitted to me that even the tuned Abarth's are seeing this problem. Better coils would be the best solution but in simplicity force cooling them is something that can be done quickly without a lot of thought.
Click to expand...

Hi Tony,

have you thought about using a remote coil pack rather than the standard coil on plug approach? This way you could mount the coil pack in a cooler location and run regular high tension leads to the plugs?

Dom.
 
TonyK, Dom is thinking what I am thinking...

By moving the ignition source. I love working on ignition problems and this sounds like a fun challenge.
If you can, send me detail of the coil pack, where and how it is mounted with respect to the spark plugs, and what the resistance of the primary side is of the coil pack itself.

If you cannot determine the resistance for physical reasons, can you send me the part numbers involved? Power to the coil pack is of less importance unless it is a completely integrated system.

Not knowing the trigger mechanism to the coil pack leads me to believe there could be an issue with that over the actual coil pack itself, but that remains to be determined.

At this time I see no reason the coil pack and ignition source to the plugs can't be moved, but I'm not there looking at it. Let's see if we can help solve this one for ya. -Bob Brown
 
How "easily" would one of these fit into a 128?

But seriously, wonderful and inspiring work. The video of the casting and forming is amazing. This entire process would make a great documentary!
 
I read TonyK's latest contribution two minutes after he posted and immediately thought two things:

1) how long before someone suggests making use of the worthless carb/FI cooling fan to solve the overheating coil packs issues :)

and

2) how many suggestions from us in the peanut gallery before it affirms his conviction in having too wide an audience with too many suggestions providing too many rabbit holes...
 
Are they faulty?

TonyK said:
The Main issue I currently have is that the ignition coils get hot under the hood of the car's engine bay. This causes a misfire when the car is hot, the ECU then locks out the fuel to the offending cylinder and well, the engine is now running on 3 cylinders. In Greg's words, solve that problem and you have it. Then all tuning platforms can be adjusted and then some, just like the Stock Abarth car.

Of all of the challenges this whole project has put before me I am totally disappointed in the ignition coil heating problem. In this day and age electronics doing this simple function should not be heat sensitive. Currently to resolve this issue leaves me with 2 venues. 1) is to box, insulate and force ventilate the 4 coils, 2) the other is to replace them with different coils that are not heat sensitive at reasonable cost. Gregg admitted to me that even the tuned Abarth's are seeing this problem. Better coils would be the best solution but in simplicity force cooling them is something that can be done quickly without a lot of thought.

Want a laugh, I stopped at the side of the road, put ice cubes on the coils and 2 minutes latter the engine was good to go. These are the kind of things I have to resort to when trouble shooting.
Click to expand...

Cheers Tony

Downunder we'd call you a sparky


I only know too well the amount of time a development program like this can suck out of ones life. Being aware of that I am very grateful of your time in responding to this little Aussie from Downunder. I concur this X 1/9 is a blast with 150 - 200 Hp, be it MultiAir Turbo, Uno / Punto Gt or the heavier K20.

So I now understand that you have looped the stock shifter cables 180 Deg back and up over to route towards the gear shift tunnel, I have a different idea that shouldn't interfere with a side mount turbo. I looked at a 500 and there seems to be enough room if I shift the coolant overflow tank, oil separator etc. Seems is the operative word.

The issue with the coil on plug (COP) heat soak is not a problem exclusive to this little Fiat. Plugpacks in PSA and VAG have had similar issues in my experience. I hadn't yet dug deep enough to see what type of coil pack they are but check the loom, as bad grounds can kill them. Make sure the grounds don't connect to the same point. Losing contact with the plug can also kill them. On a PSA car they were so sensitive that a poor charging system decreased the battery voltage just enough to not trip a error code but yet enough to lead to an insufficient voltage supply and longer charge times for the ignition coils to function. The prolonged poor charge switching times stressed the rated duty cycle on the COP devices and ultimately lead to an ignition coil defect. COPs are fussy buggers, the newer Ionized Current Sensing Ignition coils are even worse. The 'good old' days of just running some LS1 coils in an individual near plug setup won't work where the ECU ignition subsystem uses these Ionized COPs to sense misfire, the location of peak pressure, detect Pre-ignition, cold start compensation. If the ECU doesn't see these it won't work and if you can't resolve the thermal physical breakdown of the coils you are probably better off with an aftermarket ECU package.

A give away is sometimes the absence of engine block knock sensors, if they are missing then chances are that the coils have bias and buffer circuits fully integrated and encapsulated in the top of the coil / ignighter as one unit. These 'smart COPs' have the job of misfire detection by measuring combustion results instead of speed calculations. Knock detection is greatly enhanced with these as they measure the combustion signal not engine vibration. You can run a map with a higher threshold before knock but they are A PITA when they go on the Fritz.

Do you know what dwell the Fiat coils require , hasn't changed ? The cranking dwell and the running dwell duration are different AFAIK ( cranking value is normally higher) Too much running dwell will definitely cause overheating. A very large share of overheating damage can be traced back to a damaged ignition module or a defective end stage in a control unit. I have seen some tunes where they increased the dwell to mitigate for increased boost misfire only to induce COP degradation/failure and then resort to 'bigger' coils to solve the spark event problems at higher boost pressures.

Yes I liked that you were thinking practically with the ice method in this development phase ( not practical day to day for sure but hey! whatever works for now ) just be aware that if you fill the spark plug wells with water then the coil will short to the head and not the spark plug electrode, it can kill the coil pack with a possibility of upstream damage to the control unit. I found this out on a French car setup that had Siemens COP packs, misfires and eventual coil failure when the COP well is flooded. I haven't looked at the part numbers but perhaps they were not uprated and this iteration of the MultiAir is at the outer edge of the duty cycle. Heat off the head should not be a issue as these cars are tested and run in some seriously hot arid environments. Having said all that its a stock engine so ensure they meet spec, (0.44 Ω primary?) chances are they are degraded. My 2 cents is they work when they are cold but if they have internal damage they will misbehave when they get to running temps. Can you borrow some COPs from a working Fiat, if the problem goes away don't run them for an extended period and give them back. Find out if the life they lead prior has exposed yours to any of the conditions above, rectify and buy some new ones.



For the Sparky

http://www.autotap.com/techlibrary/understanding_multi-coil_ignition_systems.asp


Discharging the power to 'reset' the ECU is what I was trying to offer you, these little buggers are adaptive ECUs and learn. Yes the ECU is a fancy PCM but it's code is encrypted, so I don't go on blah blah blah about the wrong ECU which manufacturer is your ECU, Magneti Marreli, Bosch etc . . . they are not all the the same ( part of the reason I have lost so much time documenting the CANBUS), the newer MM's are encrypted in some of the layers and the solutions to these were some way off. Probably haven't fully been decrypted yet by the aftermarket tuners ( as far as I have read to date, the MM isn't a walk in the park). Up to you if you take a look at the OFT stuff, they have the ability to turn periferal modules and values in the tables on /off or a static value. As you well figured out by now some modules are only queried once during startup and others don't need constant monitoring to determine their parameters.

I agree I can't see how my current preference for a top mount Air/Air intercooler would ever fit in this application so water to air IC as you have implemented is the only solution. Unless you are going nuts with Dalara quarter panels and using the L & R Fiat 500 ICs and solving the weak stock IC plumbing connections. Making that pipework fit would be a cranium scratcher. But a water IC can actually go anywhere so I guess in response the packaging needs to maintain as short an inlet tract as possible.


For you Bob heres a pickie of part Codes 68081914AB ; 68081914AA ; 68070492AB


Spark_Plugs_Ignition_Wires_Ignition_Coil.jpg



Be wary that if they are Ionized sensing coils, the ECU uses them to detect the quality of the combustion / engine knock.



pdxeo

as a front transverse powertrain it would be easier than squeezing in an X 1/9. Going off my memory of the 128 we had in the family decades ago the front chassis legs are the question. The reason the American version didn't get the extra gear in the 500 manual box is the extra bracing (is this something I can blame Ralph Nader for ?) has made the engine bay too small. (the Euro version does not have that issue apparently). So the short answer is measure from the gearbox top mount to the crank end side mount. If the 128 is wide enough between the legs then 1/2 your troubles are gone. Its not a overly 'tall' engine so I hazzard a guess it will fit under the bonnet of a 128. How you would ever get all the power to the ground in a 128 would be 'interesting'! Reminds me of a Peugeot 205 with a 16 valve turbo that had to be detuned to make it driveable without resorting to putting bags of cement on the bonnet.
 
OK, referencing my previous post,

What's stopping you from removing the coils, re-locating them to a cooler spot, removing the "lower" assembly from each coil pack so that you are able to attach a (say) 8mm spark plug wire to it and running it to an assembly that resembles this?

Extension_Plug.jpg
Plug_Wire.jpg


The coil pack without the lower extension:



You get the security of knowing you are still using the original ignition coil while resolving the associated heat issue.
Obviously we have to find or make a plug wire and extension that will seal the hole and attach to the spark plug as an assembly.
The above spark plug wire example is from a Toyota Corolla, but I'm sure there are dozens like this of varying lengths.
The trick is finding one that will fit.
 
bbrown said:
What's stopping you from removing the coils, re-locating them to a cooler spot, removing the "lower" assembly from each coil pack so that you are able to attach a (say) 8mm spark plug wire to it and running it to an assembly that resembles this?

Extension_Plug.jpg
Plug_Wire.jpg


The coil pack without the lower extension:



You get the security of knowing you are still using the original ignition coil while resolving the associated heat issue.
Obviously we have to find or make a plug wire and extension that will seal the hole and attach to the spark plug as an assembly.
The above spark plug wire example is from a Toyota Corolla, but I'm sure there are dozens like this of varying lengths.
The trick is finding one that will fit.
Click to expand...

This option looks the most plausible. As it is simple.

Just for the record I saw DTC for cylinders A, C& D and I replaced these coils. This did not resolve the problem.

The Ice cube fix was on top of the coil where there is a flat spot. This resolves the problem until hot again. A reset of the ECU over night cool down does not produce a code until the engine is hot.

I do have #1 O2 sensor not reading and I am going to check the connection. A replacement is $200. The engine only has 2,800 miles on it, but the sensor could have been bumped as it is on the CAT pipe and I am sure it has been dropped and banged a few times.

I have ordered the HT wires and ends. To relocate will not be a big issue and it is reversible.


Update October 14/2015, if anyone is reading this post you will notice that I just slipped a working solution into this post with pictures of the progress made. ( also released another You Tube video of the start of the project) I put about 60 miles on the car today, no issues. The spark coils are double insulated from the engine and the mounting plate is stainless steel with plastic bushings. Temperatures here today were only 60 degrees, but the coils never get warmer than about 105 degrees.



TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtCCLSkP1WI

December 24th 2015 added new You Tube Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4K2gdd5dTs
 
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TonyK,

Should we be expecting a documented how-to any time in the near future? I (and many many others) greatly look forward to anything I can find on this build. Also, please keep posting more and more youtube videos on the build. :love:

This is definitely going to be put on my too-distant but near-future plans for projects. :pigsfly: But first I must buy a house, get my current projects in line, pay off college... etc....etc.

~Andrew
Akimball92
 
Answers to your questions.

There is a lot of road testing in a project like this one. Things come up that were plainly missed or under engineered. I think Bernice summed it up when she mentioned a separate category for Le Manns with transplanted engines. Reliability is always in doubt.

This spring May 1st I will be trailering the car to Bob Martins house in Radcliff Kentucky where we should be able to drive the car in some warmer weather and see if it lets me down or stranded. ( Us Stranded)

I have learned a lot about the engine as a package, stuff that Fiat Tech's don't know because they are trying to get a car back on the road as the OEM built it to be. Sadly this is by trial and error, no one from Fiat is there to talk to that knows the in's and out's of what they built and the what if we don't use____part, what will happen and how do I get around it.

Anyway, here is link to my You Tube Channel the video has been there for over a year but is it not public. It will give you some insight of where I was 18 months ago, building a dream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1JfiUbZhHg

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada
 
Cool video. Christ that was much work to get to that point. I don't recall if I watched that back then or not.

EDIT: did you take any detail pics of the shaft failure (don't see any in the Dec video)? Curious to see what actually happened.
 
Here is a shot of the linkage

If you take a look at the shifter shaft, it has a button on the top of it.

I should have installed a bolt between the button to transfer the load to the arm. Because of the break, I welded another section underneath it and installed 2 bolts.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada




 
Been a while since I have posted on this swap, but thought I would bring you up to date with the car.

I was running very well but as boys are, we play and then find ourselves in issues not expected.


Since the problems were of Current Abarth issues I started a post on the Fiat 500 Web site.

See this link.

http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?28770-Open-Flash-problems

So here I am half way around the world thinking about resolving this issue.

I suspect this issue is with the fact that the body control module is no longer parzed with the ECU and that is why I have lock out. Off to the dealer on Wednesday to see if we can sort this out and install a new ECU to prove whether or not it is the ECU or a hidden line of code that has be tripped bringing this problem to the surface.

I did have the car running very well, so that has been proven, just messing with the ECU and rewriting has caused an issue to come forward. Will keep you posted on the progress.

TonyK

On vacation in Fiji.
 
TonyK said:
Been a while since I have posted on this swap, but thought I would bring you up to date with the car.

I was running very well but as boys are, we play and then find ourselves in issues not expected.


Since the problems were of Current Abarth issues I started a post on the Fiat 500 Web site.

See this link.

http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?28770-Open-Flash-problems

So here I am half way around the world thinking about resolving this issue.

I suspect this issue is with the fact that the body control module is no longer parzed with the ECU and that is why I have lock out. Off to the dealer on Wednesday to see if we can sort this out and install a new ECU to prove whether or not it is the ECU or a hidden line of code that has be tripped bringing this problem to the surface.

I did have the car running very well, so that has been proven, just messing with the ECU and rewriting has caused an issue to come forward. Will keep you posted on the progress.

TonyK

On vacation in Fiji.
Click to expand...


Current status Car now running, but no road test today as it was raining. Will have at FFO 2016, with stock tune for now on the car. Will give anyone a ride if interested.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.

IMG_3756.JPG



IMG_3873.JPG
 
That is good news Tony. I wish I was going to FFO so I could get a ride. My sister in law decided to get married that weekend. :(
 
wSorry to hear you will not be there this year Jim. I figured it would be closer for you this time around.

Spoke to soon about the car. Yes it runs I had a new ECU installed all of the old DTC's cleared up but a new one surfaced again the O2 sensor, no the pump on the sensor says no voltage. Not that I really cared, because the old ECU ran the car fine without the O2 Sensor heater and output voltages. The issue now is I have a flat spot at around 4000 RPM and the engine or the exhaust system back fires. I spent 4 hours today tracing wires and following a diagnostic procedure and it says that the ECU is bad. Really? Is it this complicated. I think what I need are the modules from a wrecked car with the key switch, key, SKIM, the body control Module and the ECU. That is an entity. Swap them all out and the car should run. Anybody know where such a car may be? Let me know.

So the car will be there, but it runs differently than before, well here's to the next challenge in the project.

TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
Excellent news on the one hand unfortunate on the other.

Now I really regret not attending this year. I sadly have spent all my car money on a car that won't be ready for driving this year...
 
TonyK said:
wSorry to hear you will not be there this year Jim. I figured it would be closer for you this time around.

Spoke to soon about the car. Yes it runs I had a new ECU installed all of the old DTC's cleared up but a new one surfaced again the O2 sensor, no the pump on the sensor says no voltage. Not that I really cared, because the old ECU ran the car fine without the O2 Sensor heater and output voltages. The issue now is I have a flat spot at around 4000 RPM and the engine or the exhaust system back fires. I spent 4 hours today tracing wires and following a diagnostic procedure and it says that the ECU is bad. Really? Is it this complicated. I think what I need are the modules from a wrecked car with the key switch, key, SKIM, the body control Module and the ECU. That is an entity. Swap them all out and the car should run. Anybody know where such a car may be? Let me know.

So the car will be there, but it runs differently than before, well here's to the next challenge in the project.

TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
Click to expand...

Hi Tony,

If you bump into any FIAT/Chrysler honchos at FFO 2017, tell them that they should expand their program of selling plug-n-play kits that enable the installation of a modern (2014 and newer) HEMI V8 engine into older MOPAR cars, to the FIAT side of the house. I think your swap would have been a whole lot easier if you had the FIAT equivalent of the HEMI swap kits described here: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...crate-hemi-engine-kits-at-sema-300355444.html

Catalog here: https://www.mopar.com/content/dam/mopar/pdf/performance-catalogs/Performance_Engine_Catalog.pdf
 
I agree, all I need is an unlocked ECU that does not require the body control module and other new car items and I would be all set. I think what is happening from what I have been reading is that the old ECU targets may have been a bit wilder than the new ECU. Possibly spark plug gap as well. That is the issue with computer controlled valve timing. The computer is boss all of the time. I have a few more things to try and I will see where that gets me. The car is still drivable.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
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