Thinking about getting an X

enthusiast

New Member
Hi all, first post on this forum.

I want to buy an X. My cars always end up getting stripped and modified to go faster and handle better, so I was wondering if you all could give me some pointers on where to start. I've read the Wikipedia page and have learned a little about the variations through out the years, but I wouldn't say I know much about these. Are there any years that have certain aspects that make them more competitive for scca racing because of regulations? I plan on some light duty track use. The cap on a built 1500 is about 200hp? Both 4 and 5 speed are weak for higher power? Is the final drive ratio changeable? 1300 v 1500? carb v efi?

I'm a rotary guy. Own and race a 12a rx7 so low HP numbers on quick chassis is nothing new. It will be a dedicated race car, while the X would be a semi comfortable weekend cruiser. The weakest point in the Mazda is its awful recirculating ball steering box, its trash. Hopping the x1/9 rack is better.

Ideally i would buy a project car with a weak or non running engine to fix up and modify. Where are the common rust holes? Tips on buying an X in general would be nice. If you know of one for sale in the southeastern coast I would be interested. I live in Florida, but often travel between here and Texas.

thanks, sorry for the million questions :help:
 
Hi all, first post on this forum.

I want to buy an X. My cars always end up getting stripped and modified to go faster and handle better, so I was wondering if you all could give me some pointers on where to start. I've read the Wikipedia page and have learned a little about the variations through out the years, but I wouldn't say I know much about these. Are there any years that have certain aspects that make them more competitive for scca racing because of regulations? I plan on some light duty track use. The cap on a built 1500 is about 200hp? Both 4 and 5 speed are weak for higher power? Is the final drive ratio changeable? 1300 v 1500? carb v efi?

I'm a rotary guy. Own and race a 12a rx7 so low HP numbers on quick chassis is nothing new. It will be a dedicated race car, while the X would be a semi comfortable weekend cruiser. The weakest point in the Mazda is its awful recirculating ball steering box, its trash. Hopping the x1/9 rack is better.

Ideally i would buy a project car with a weak or non running engine to fix up and modify. Where are the common rust holes? Tips on buying an X in general would be nice. If you know of one for sale in the southeastern coast I would be interested. I live in Florida, but often travel between here and Texas.

thanks, sorry for the million questions :help:

You are going to have to do some serious engine mods to get close to 200hp out of a 1500 engine. If you have been driving rotaries then get ready for a bit of a let down on low end torque. Fiats are known for acceleration with out exhilaration.
 
Welcome.
If you want to drive your x on the street they're pretty good for that out o the box. I got an '81 5 years ago, pretty close to being scrapped. Got her running and driving (because of the great people here) and have just kept fixing stuff as it comes up. 45,000 miles on it since then. Best car I've ever owned as far as fun to drive, fun to work on, inexpensive, good mileage, versatile (targa top) great pedigree, interesting history blah blah blah.....
Get two.

My son had a first gen RX7 that we nursed back into running condition. Yes, the RX7 was quicker but the X is a much "better" car IMHO, for the reasons above.

Rust; all the usual places with special consideration around the windshield, door bottoms, rear trunk "pockets" (behind rear wheels), rear trunk floor and access panel (between rear trunk and engine bay)
Gearboxes can have weak reverse or 3rd gear if they've been driven stupidly.

If you want a comfortable weekend cruiser it already is that so you're done. If you want a race car, well, you can't really have both, can you?
Buy two
 
Welcome Mr. E. After reading what ya wrote...

I think it would probably be best if you look for a test drive in a couple before you commit.

You have a lot of specifics that you think you wanna do and I dunno if you'd be up to making the changes necessary and even if you did, then I dunno if the car could live up to your expectations.

I think most everyone here was first SMITTEN by the relatively great engineering and design, whether or not it was executed well. Then, like Crack-Cocaine... we tried it and liked it and can't get the proverbial monkey off our back.

You sound like you are somewhat interested in its design and I humbly suggest you find a ride and then see if you wanna pull the trigger.

You can start another thread here looking for one in your area or if you are planning a trip elsewhere... do the same. I can't think of anyone offhand in Florida, but you never know who's lurking.

Good luck with your hunt.
 
Question is... what are your long term plans for the exxe?

First item for most who want to "modify an exxe" is to add power. As previously mentioned, 200 hp from the stock 1500cc is not gonna happen without a turbo. Beyond that the 1500cc is not designed for a turbo, Fiat produced a variant of this engine that is specifically for a turbo (Fiat Turbo Uno). These were never officially imported to the US market.

Beyond the problems with adding a turbo to the 1500cc, the stock gear box is NOT going to like the significantly increased torque at all and the stock gearing is mostly wrong for a turbo motor.

Let's park the whole idea of increasing the power in the exxe and consider what the intent and goals are for your ideal exxe. There is much to consider from brakes, to chassis and a lot more.

As for what happens when a Mazda 12A PP race rotary (about 200 Whp * 9000+ RPM) is installed into an exxe that weights about 1700 lbs..with not the ideal gearing in the Porsche 901 gear box (that has proven to be one of the most problem ridden oily bits in this LeMons racer).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWuNb14H-Uk


Bernice
 
Thanks for all the replies, I didn't think this forum would move this quickly! I like that a lot.

That car in texas looks pretty ok, exactly what i was asking for. I'm not very good with panel beating, but the damage doesn't look too terrible. None of whats bent is structural?

Im not actually concerned with power figures, just curious on the engines capabilities. I hadn't actually read what power figures a built engine could achieve, i was thinking 200 was about max. 100hp stock 7 is plenty fun. Whats the rule of thumb on money invested to power gained?

Thanks for the rust locations jvandyke!

Black-tooth, i completely agree with you. A test drive in a good example is what i need before making a purchase. The history on cars is always fascinating, I try to learn and appreciate as much as i can. The design is what has me enchanted.

Long term on an X... Well get it running. patch rust. replace whats broken. Suspension before power is my usual plan of attack on modifications. I see that midwest carries a great set of both coilovers and wilwood brakes. I want to ad to the community with some of my own ideas and mods too of course.

12a PP I have one of those, of course it needs a rebuild right now haha.
 
engine capabilities... depends what the budget is, of course. Perhaps have a browse thru this

http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/22546/

quite a bit of info about 1300/1500 and 1600 stroker options

and this

http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/28213/

a 1.9 stroker build

up to around 160 at the crank is what the head is capable of naturally aspirated.

The damage to that X19 in Texas looks very cosmetic on the fender... the lower front valance may have other sheet metal behind it that's also bent... PM the seller for more pics, he sounds keen to sell and see it go to a good home and not just get parted out

SteveC
 
Last edited by a moderator:
test drive

make sure you post your location in Florida, Xwebbers are all over the place and most of us are like drug dealers and will gladly give you a test drive to get you hooked on our obsession.

Odie
 
HP vs Cost

In my experience, gaining the first 10 HP is cheap.
1. Replace the air intake to a K&N style (fuel injection)
2. Remove the AC

But beyond that, I'd say about $500+ for every 10HP gain.
And the higher the HP's the more expensive the added HP's cost.
$2000+ will get you into the 110 to 115HP range, and that's buying the parts and doing the work yourself. :2c:
 
Welcome!

Hi all, first post on this forum.

I want to buy an X. My cars always end up getting stripped and modified to go faster and handle better, so I was wondering if you all could give me some pointers on where to start. I've read the Wikipedia page and have learned a little about the variations through out the years, but I wouldn't say I know much about these. Are there any years that have certain aspects that make them more competitive for scca racing because of regulations? I plan on some light duty track use. The cap on a built 1500 is about 200hp? Both 4 and 5 speed are weak for higher power? Is the final drive ratio changeable? 1300 v 1500? carb v efi?

Welcome to the forum! My advice on buying an X1/9 is as follows:

-Buy the nicest one you can find or afford. You can find good project cars in my area in the $1000-$2000 range, or buy one that needs almost nothing for $5000-6000. You'll end up spending more on the "cheaper" ones.

-If you decide to buy the 1k-2k project, get the least rusty & straightest body possible. It's more fun and rewarding to fix/upgrade mechanicals than rust IMO. Lots of guys go this route, so they can end up with their exact vision/dream X1/9 anyway..

-Look at a 74-78 example and a 79+ to see which interior/seats/bumpers/engine covers/ etc you like better. I really prefer the later models, but would take a 74 over anything as they are special in many ways.

-Use us! post what you're going to look at. the knowledge on this forum is incredible.

-have fun as always
 
Fiatfactory that engine thread is a goldmine! That's one of the best threads i've ever seen. So much information. Will give it a read for sure!

I've filled out a bit more of my bio. Would be awesome to get a ride in someones x1/9.

Thanks for the breakdown on price to power bbrown. The air intake making a significant difference is interesting, does that have a lot to do with built in restrictions? Doing all the work myself is how i roll, did not realize power was so expensive on these.

Good advise Alex1/9. What is the consensus on 1300 vs 1500? Reliability, and parts availability being my biggest concerns. I enjoy working with carbs, but don't mind fuel injection either. From my very limited understanding im liking the newer 1500, 5 speed, efi models. Looks like the center console controls got a rearrange at some point. The texas car seems to have AC control higher on the dash rather than leavers on the center console.
 
What is the consensus on 1300 vs 1500? Reliability, and parts availability being my biggest concerns. I enjoy working with carbs, but don't mind fuel injection either. From my very limited understanding im liking the newer 1500, 5 speed, efi models. Looks like the center console controls got a rearrange at some point. The texas car seems to have AC control higher on the dash rather than leavers on the center console.


1300 vs 1500 is an even match for me. The 4speed vs 5speed, carbureted vs fuel injection, all have their pros and cons. Parts availability is still relatively good for all, and a lot of stuff is interchangeable. You can put a 4 speed in a 1500, replace the FI with carburetors, replace a carb with FI, you get the idea...

The HVAC controls were moved from the center console to the dash in 79, with updated dash and seats (and 1500/5sp, new bumpers, engine lid etc) . I like the 79+ dash and seats, especially the leather versions in later Bertone models. But again, all these things can be interchanged with varying degrees of ease.

Bottom line, this platform is versatile and it's more about what you plan to build and what kind of finished product you're looking for. You can't really make a bad decision on the year/equipment as much as you can buy the wrong example. Search for rot, accident damage, previous repairs, and be vigilant! Areas to check are the windshield frame, shock towers, battery tray, coolant pipes that run front to back under the center of the floor, the floor pans, cowls under the windshield and flanking the engine bay, frame rails, rockers, lower fender corner cavities....
 
Last edited:
If your after a considerable power boost, carburettors (in plural) are the way to go. It doesn't really matter if you begin with an EFI car to start with, but apart from the 79 model year, the 1500 5 speed versions are all EFI in North America.

Most people prefer the five speed transmission, for the extra gear, not for much else really. The weak part of the transmission is actually the five speed differential centre, most other components being identical /similar /interchangeable...but the four and five speeds use a different axle arrangement, thus a different differential arrangement, and of the two the five speed is weaker. There are many examples of a four / five hybrid gearbox, I was probably one of the first worldwide to do this to an X19 transmission back in 1990, and have done it many times since.

Advantages of the four speed style transmission are lighter axles and CV joint assemblies. A lighter clutch and flywheel, and a more common, cheaper to find and lighter starter motor. (Certainly here in Australia)

If you plan to turbocharge the engine the later style axles are definitely stronger and preferable, though they would still be overkill, as the CV joints are basically the same as a turbo Porsche. Such overkill found it's way onto the X19 as the later rear suspension is almost identical to the Lancia scorpion/montecarlo, which was originally slated to have V6 power, but ended up federalized and a 1800/2000 four cylinder.

The four speed axles /CV's and tripode joints will handle anything naturally aspirated without problem.

The 1500 is preferable over a 1300 as it's much easier to build static compression in the larger capacities, and woeful static compression is the primary problem faced by anything delivered for the north american market,the camshaft and exhaust are also ordinary to say the least, but that's external and simpler to address, pistons and cylinder head changes require opening the engine up.

The earlier cars are a little lighter, the addition of impact absorbing bumpers added additional metal and welded in brackets,which are difficult to remove in a sanitary fashion. The later cars have the big 5mph federal bumpers and this extra weight is at the cars extremities, so affects the polar moment...if your planning on track day use you'll understand what this means to the cars sharpness at a change of direction.

Later cars with air cond /power windows / more sound deadening can add 60/70kg to an early car without these accoutrements, and weight makes a big difference with low power...as I'm sure you already know if your a racer.

One big plus for the later cars is the larger and more robust wheel bearings they were fitted with. The four speed cars carried over their basic design from a Fiat 128, and although improved sealing helped the problem during production, it really was only properly addressed with the series two redesign and the larger bearings front and rear.

Basic best advice is find the best body you can afford with no rust. I usually advise against buying cars with fresh shiny paint as it often hides all manner of nastiness that rears it head after the deal is done... you will get far better value for money throwing $$'s at the mechanicals, than you will from a shiny paint job, and rust work is hideously expensive to pay to have done right.

SteveC
 
BTW...

Everyone seems to be leaving out the other 200HP+ option, an engine swap.

Matt over at Midwest-Bayless has an engine mount kit and driveshafts for a K20 series engine/transmission mod. I think they were talking up to 240HP.

It requires a lot of work, but if you're really looking for a pocket rocket...
 
that four letter word again....

I knew it would be about 24 hours before someone used the four letter word... swap... only took about 30 hours.

Alfa V6, Fiat DOHC 8 valve, Fiat DOHC 16 valve, Uno Turbo S1 and S2, Punto HGT,Toyota, Honda, Mazda rotary and even electric motors have all been used.

OP never asked about or mentioned swaps.

SteveC
 
Mike... Ya gotta be carefull around Steve C as he...

was born to the family that owned a Fiat Dealership/Service Center for several generations!

The "S" word to him is like the "F" word to anyone else!

HA!
 
Seen the diff shatter on the 5 speed gear boxes and the results are often really messy. What can help is to de-burr the rough edges on the spider gear housing, then take the de-burred housing to a specialist to have it shot peened. This can help but does not completely or always solve the problem. Know this can happen on cars with upped engine output and is being driven under real race conditions.

Another item that aggravates this problem is the inherent traction in the exxe chassis, this means a lot of forces are taken up by the drive line.


The CV joints used on the later 1500cc, 5 speed have a 86mm bolt circle,
33 spline (if memory is correct). These are larger than would be used on any production car of this weight and size. The only short coming is the screws holding them to the drive flange getting loose. This is a problem common to ALL cv joints that have threaded flanges. Seen this identical problem in everything from Porsche, to Van-Diemien.

The fix is to drill out the threaded flanges, spot face the unfinished side of the drive flange and use the proper aerospace spec bolt (MS21250 or similar), countersink washer (MS20002) and matching prevailing torque nut. This absolutely solves the problem of CV screws getting loose under all race and street conditions.

The later front uprights with larger bearings are directly interchangeable on earlier cars. Except for the larger bearing uprights being heavier, they are an upgrade if the larger bearings are a priority.

The rear uprights are interchangeable between 1300cc & 1500cc. EXCEPT the CV joints and axles related are completely different. The 1500cc rear uprights have the larger bearings and threaded drive flange to match the larger 86mm bolt circle CV joints.


Bernice


The weak part of the transmission is actually the five speed differential centre.


If you plan to turbocharge the engine the later style axles are definitely stronger and preferable, though they would still be overkill, as the CV joints are basically the same as a turbo Porsche. Such overkill found it's way onto the X19 as the later rear suspension is almost identical to the Lancia scorpion/montecarlo, which was originally slated to have V6 power, but ended up federalized and a 1800/2000 four cylinder.

The four speed axles /CV's and tripode joints will handle anything naturally aspirated without problem.

One big plus for the later cars is the larger and more robust wheel bearings they were fitted with. The four speed cars carried over their basic design from a Fiat 128, and although improved sealing helped the problem during production, it really was only properly addressed with the series two redesign and the larger bearings front and rear.



SteveC
 
Back
Top