3,000 foot commute

rjplenter

True Classic
As some of you may know, recently Kristy and I moved from suburban Denver to the mountains. My old commute featured approx. 300-400 feet in elevation change and all suburban streets, my new commute includes 3,000 feet in elevation change (from 5,300 to 8,300) and many miles of twisting mountain roads. I know, poor me right?!?!? :mallet:

Well, this change has revealed some inadequacies in my X.
1) The current jetting is fine at 5,300ft but off at 8,300 feet,
2) my current suspension settings are not quite up to mountain road standard,
3) my brakes suck!!! :censored:

So Xmas is coming early for the barn find in the shape of a wideband AFR sensor/gauge to sort out the jetting (which will be even more crucial once the new engine is installed), changed spring rates and adjusting the Konis to suit and then tinkering with ride heights and camber settings, and an upgraded front brake system (from one of our vendors).

Fortunately our new garage is well insulated. BOOYAH!!! :headbang::headbang::headbang: I get to play with my toys...errr...I mean tools and then take the X out for some test drives. :grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:
 
Or....

Switch to F.I. and forget about it! :headbang:

Congrats on the new place. A well insulated garage is a nice thing. I love that mine stays 10-15 degrees warmer than the outside just from the lights and occasional residual engine heat.
 
My first thought was to suggest a front brake upgrade from the stock solid rotor to one of the aftermarket vented rotor setups.

Ya gotta think that the larger vented rotors and more modern caliper design would help withstand the extra heat generated on the downhill portion of the drive.

IIRC one of the Vick Boys posted a while back that they were considering developing a rear brake upgrade kit, too, but I don't recall seeing any "new news" about it recently.
 
Well... why not tune to 6800 feet and meet in the middle...

3000 Feet / 2 = 1500, added to 5300 = 6800 average...

or...

Move again.

HA!

So... have you worked on the brakes yet since you owned the car? I find that correctly installed stockers with 60 series tires work extremely well... but actually I never use mine in LA... (HA!)

I certainly would try refreshing your brakes with all new pads, rotors and flex lines before spending a whole bunch of dolares for some Wilwood calipers and rotors. You would need to upgrade to 15 inch wheels as well. If that ain't good enuff fer ya... then all you are out is $30 bucks for rotors and $10 bucks for some pads. Alls the rest you could probably use.

Just another tidbit from "Mr. Frugal" here...
 
Stuff to consider.

At 8,000 ft means lower air density. Beyond altering jetting and fuel mixture there is simply less O2 lowering power unless there is a device to pack the air into the engine. This is where a turbocharged or supercharged petro engine does much better than normally aspirated petro engines.

It is why turbocharged piston engine aircraft have a significant power advantage over their non-turbo counterparts.

Lower air density means lower cooling ability. This will stress the cooling system more than at sea level. The combination of high power demands with lower ability to reject head to cool the engine means extra demands on the cooling system.


The brakes on the exxe have enough stopping power, it lacks heat capacity and has too much bias towards the front. Altering the front brakes alone will not completely solve the brake issues designed into the exxe. Change the front brakes over to vented rotors goes a ways to adding heat capacity to the brake system, changing the rear calipers to the larger 38mm cylinder calipers will make even more difference as this help with the excessive front brake bias and reduce the front brake from cooking under high brake demands.


As for the suspension.. There are many options and ways to set it up to meet these driving and road demands.



Bernice
 
I think Bernice has the BEST answer. Install an ABARTH...

TURBO from a 2014 Fiat 500... Get the brakes all around as well as they are just one of many things you will need to satisfy the on-board computer in order to start the engine...

HA!

(I doubt you'll need the A/C though...)
 
Tuning now is always going to be a compromise

I thought about going FI for a nanosecond, but my new head is not set up for it and I have to admit I am a little (just a wee bit) addicted to the sound of twin carbs. :headbang: I have quite a collection of venturis, jets and emulsion tubes to play with and will find something that "works" over a reasonable range.

Dear Mr. Frugal, I guess I should qaulify my "brakes suck" comment. My current brakes are in excellent condition, new discs, EBC green pads on the front, new hoses, new master, calipers in top shape etc. etc. But, I do cane them somewhat coming down the mountain and as Bernice correctly points out, the rarified air does reduce cooling. Also my calipers are the early type and while adequate down on the plains, have proved to be naff at altitude.

To improve the balance with bigger modern front brakes I am exploring the idea of installing front calipers on the rear with an inline hydraulic handbrake cylinder (a la rally car set up) to maintain a parking brake function.

Insane? Probably. But it is a set up I am familiar with and had in all my rally cars. The bigger caliper bores will mean more pedal travel, but over the years I have found this allows for finer modulation of braking and less likelihood to lock up.

As for engine cooling in thinner air, I am currently running an Alfa 33 alloy radiator that does a good job and I have a BobG rad stashed away to be installed when the new engine is installed. I am still considering running waterless coolant so do not want to put water based coolant through it yet. There will also be an oil cooler with inline thermostat which will take some of the stress off the water/waterless system.

Yaw/pitch/roll. Each of these is off. I already have a front sway bar so any changes in roll will be achieved with higher spring rates. This will also reduce pitch. Higher spring rates may adversely effect turn in, but I can hopefully get that back with tweeks to camber, castor, ride height and tyre pressures.
 
Rob... Although the rear brake lever and upgrade...

might be fun... I don't think itsa gonna really help when ya need it... and that is when you are going DOWNHILL.

The fronts always had a tendency to lock up with the nose high attitude, 70 or 80 series tires and especially in the wet or UPHILL turns. Another contributor to this malady were the 40%/60% (45%/65%?) static weight distribution.

So... its really not the fault of the BRAKES that I see as the problem, but the inability of the tires to grip because of the factors I just spoke of.

You haven't mentioned FADE per say, but if that is a problem then that can be addressed with the vented/drilled rotors. If I were you, I would mess with the tires, tire pressures, and lowering the front end a bit... and store more stuff up front than in the rear trunk. Going back to the OLD DAZE in the late 60's and early 70's... we also found another use for 60 or 100 pounds of bagged concrete.

Just sayin'...

Thanks for filling me in with the brake condition and I thought you had dual carbs. Hey... they are great to listen to and pulling a lot more air... which in your case the pressure now varies quite a bit.

Ya know... I have not seen a turbo-ed twin carbed X yet... also haven't see one with a centrifugal supercharger at all...

You could be the FIRST! You certainly have a NEED (and a GOOD excuse) to install one!
 
Current stance

The fronts always had a tendency to lock up with the nose high attitude, 70 or 80 series tires and especially in the wet or UPHILL turns.

So... its really not the fault of the BRAKES that I see as the problem, but the inability of the tires to grip because of the factors I just spoke of.

The current stance is a bit lower than this (I must take new photos):

As you can see, I'm already running 195/45 15 rubber and that is part of the problem, the grip is quite good which works the brakes harder than standard. You may also be able to see that the discs are drilled and slotted, but not vented.

You haven't mentioned FADE per say

I did not, but there has been fade and a spongy pedal. And discolouration of the discs. And smoking pads on one extra spirited run.

Thanks for filling me in with the brake condition and I thought you had dual carbs. Hey... they are great to listen to and pulling a lot more air... which in your case the pressure now varies quite a bit.

Ya know... I have not seen a turbo-ed twin carbed X yet... also haven't see one with a centrifugal supercharger at all...

You could be the FIRST! You certainly have a NEED (and a GOOD excuse) to install one!

Papa T, I think you're confusing me with Hussein or Bernice or Steve or Mr. Brown. :wink2: They are the ones who possess limitless abilities to modify...

Cheers,

Rob
 
Hey... you've done a great job so far, Rob...

Time to step it up a NOTCH out of NECESSITY!

HA!

As for the brakes... Since you are driving with "spirit" a lot... and you already have the 15 inch wheel... maybe the Allison (or similar) front brake upgrade would be "warranted".

Continue having fun, but unless you have a "spare", remember you gotta get to work each day to pay for these upgrades!
 
Stock exxe front brake will fry under extended braking requirements, it is not a matter of stopping power, the stock brake system does not have enough heat rejection capability. The thinner air and long steep roads makes this problem worst.

Do try changing over the stock rear brake calipers to stock front calipers (46mm piston, and no parking brakes) to see if the brake bias is OK for your driving conditions. This alone will very significantly reduce the heat load on the front brakes and help with the brake bias problem. If this experiment works out OK, then adding the hydraulic hand brake is a viable way to go.

Weber DCOE's have and can be tinkered with to achieve proper fuel mixture at 8-9,000 ft. Do attach at least one wide band O2 sensor with a data logger (ideal would be one at each cylinder) to check fuel-air ratio. While this will result in much less power than a turbo motor, it will be an improvement.

Do improve the cooling system, once spring and summer heat set in, the cooling system will be stressed MUCH more than it would be at sea level. This is one factor many car folks don't consider when running motor vehicles at thinner air.

Get this stuff settle, then adjust the chassis as required.

BTW, 8,000-year-old gene mutation 'explains humans' adaptation to high altitudes'. Tibet folks.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/281195.php


Bernice


I thought about going FI for a nanosecond, but my new head is not set up for it and I have to admit I am a little (just a wee bit) addicted to the sound of twin carbs. :headbang: I have quite a collection of venturis, jets and emulsion tubes to play with and will find something that "works" over a reasonable range.

Dear Mr. Frugal, I guess I should qaulify my "brakes suck" comment. My current brakes are in excellent condition, new discs, EBC green pads on the front, new hoses, new master, calipers in top shape etc. etc. But, I do cane them somewhat coming down the mountain and as Bernice correctly points out, the rarified air does reduce cooling. Also my calipers are the early type and while adequate down on the plains, have proved to be naff at altitude.

To improve the balance with bigger modern front brakes I am exploring the idea of installing front calipers on the rear with an inline hydraulic handbrake cylinder (a la rally car set up) to maintain a parking brake function.

Insane? Probably. But it is a set up I am familiar with and had in all my rally cars. The bigger caliper bores will mean more pedal travel, but over the years I have found this allows for finer modulation of braking and less likelihood to lock up.

As for engine cooling in thinner air, I am currently running an Alfa 33 alloy radiator that does a good job and I have a BobG rad stashed away to be installed when the new engine is installed. I am still considering running waterless coolant so do not want to put water based coolant through it yet. There will also be an oil cooler with inline thermostat which will take some of the stress off the water/waterless system.

Yaw/pitch/roll. Each of these is off. I already have a front sway bar so any changes in roll will be achieved with higher spring rates. This will also reduce pitch. Higher spring rates may adversely effect turn in, but I can hopefully get that back with tweeks to camber, castor, ride height and tyre pressures.
 
So Bernice... are you saying Rob just hasta...

wait and adapt?

"A new study led by researchers from the University of Utah suggests it is down to an 8,000-year-old gene mutation."

So unless they get this EGLN1 gene synthesized soon, then his off-spring will eventually "climatize" to his new environment!
 
Rob,

give Ross Smith in Sydney a call, I'm not 100% sure of the brand of brake pads he sells, but several of the 'Fiat nationals' crew run his pads and track their cars with otherwise completely stock brake setups, and they report excellent fade resistance ... otherwise (or also) investigate getting some cooling air (ducting pointed right at the calipers) into the system to mitigate the overheating effects ...

another option would be to use the later type calipers (solid alloy one piece items) as these definitely have less tendency to 'bend' and give poor pedal feel.

yet another option would be the cast caliper carriers from one of the later models (non USA based) like the regata / strada / ritmo sohc models that uses the same cast alloy sliding caliper, but a slightly different cast iron caliper carrier...and also uses a slightly larger pad (turns out they are exactly the same profile as the lancia beta) ... you can fit these front and rear (lancia beta has a similar rear caliper assembly w/handbrake and uses the same raised 'nub' on the rear pad) so increasing the pad size equally front and rear, thus not altering the bias (if your happy with the way it currently stands) ... as the lancia is a heavier vehicle, the pad compounds available are often harder and designed to work at elevated temps.

15" wheels will also have exacerbated the problem, you have a larger (longer) lever arm trying to turn the disc (a bit like like a bigger steering wheel reduces the turning effort) which is working the brakes even harder...

SteveC
 
Progress

Rob, give Ross Smith in Sydney a call

Well, I had already pulled the trigger on one of Allison's Black Friday deals. Modern day Fiat 500 ventilated discs and Wilwood calipers. I am very impressed, this was a straight bolt on installation with no futzing around. The only issue was USPS beat up the package so badly some parts were missing, but Mark remedied that in very quick time. :clap: Combined with front calipers moved to the rear the braking is now outstanding with no heat issues so far. There is a little more pedal travel but the brake modulation is now enhanced.

Next I will be fitting a hydraulic handbrake and I have a Wilwood inline master cylinder for that. There is limited space for fitting this so it will be a challenge. Back in the day we used to use cylinders from Hilman Imps.



I don't remember why Imps exactly...

15" wheels will also have exacerbated the problem, you have a larger (longer) lever arm trying to turn the disc (a bit like like a bigger steering wheel reduces the turning effort) which is working the brakes even harder...

SteveC

That shouldn't be an issue since using 45 profile tyres gives almost exactly the same rolling circumference as standard.

With a change of spring and shock rates the handling is now much better too. :)

I haven't installed the AFR gear yet, so jetting is still off at home.

Cheers,

Rob
 
Moving the front calipers to rear often solves the problem of cooking the front brakes. This also solves the excessive front brake bias problem resulting in a mud improved brake bias for performance oriented driving.

Know the folks who originally set up the brakes on the exxe intended them to be as safe under as many road conditions as possible for the typical driver. It was the norm for chassis engineers and set up folks to put brake bias towards the front. This was the best way before the advent of four wheel ABS.

This brake set up is very similar to what is used on the LeMons racer.

The way to improve the brakes further is to install and larger diameter brake master cylinder to compensate for the larger diameter brake caliper cylinders. Further improvement would be to convert the current single tandem brake master cylinder into two independent brake masters with a bias bar. The lesser (does not act until set pressure is near or reached, does not behave anything like a dual brake master with bias bar) would be to install a front brake pressure limiter valve.

The Hilman would likely have Girling brake master cylinders that were common on many British road and race cars. That Girling master cylinder design lives to this day in race cars. It is a very good design that has been well proven over time. This same unit was also used on the Abarth x1/9 rally car.

Hydraulic hand brake conversion might need some surgery, -ectomy and plumbing on the center console to fit. Project indeed, the results could be very worth while and consider the ease of doing hand brake turns with this installed.


Bernice
 
If there were a prize...

...Bernice would win it!!!

The Hilman would likely have Girling brake master cylinders that were common on many British road and race cars. That Girling master cylinder design lives to this day in race cars. It is a very good design that has been well proven over time. This same unit was also used on the Abarth x1/9 rally car.

You're absolutely correct! That's exactly why we used them. Those Girling cylinders were excellent and easy to get in Australia. And I now discover, they are still available new.



The new Wilwood I have looks an awful lot like the Girling unit. :wink2:

Hydraulic hand brake conversion might need some surgery, -ectomy and plumbing on the center console to fit. Project indeed, the results could be very worth while and consider the ease of doing hand brake turns with this installed. Bernice

Yes, I agree, it is going to test my engineering "skills". If it works I will kick myself, we could have used one in the rallye X, but never had one and had to rely on the original system which just wasn't capable enough to be of much use.



Ugh! I miss that car.

Cheers,

Rob
 
One look at any current mid range race pedal assembly and it is apparent they are ALL set up for these Girling cylinders or similar. Beyond GIrling, Wilwood, TIlton and others make master cylinder with this mechanical mounting. It's become a race industry standard and a best value -vs-performance.

Once spoke to Douglass Burke who is Sr. VP of engineering at Wilwood, he told me they sell a LOT of these master cylinders and they are made from new tooling that is not wore out like many of the lower quality ones. He made some noises that Girling's tooling used to make these are pretty knackared as it shows on their current product.

Really proper brakes are not often appreciated as they can be used by the driver to shift the weight of the car aiding in turn entry.


If you get stuck on that hand brake conversion, post and let's figure it out.

BTW, AP racing make a rather interesting lever operated brake master;
http://www.apracing.com/products/race_car/master_cylinders/hand_brake_type.aspx


Bernice
 
I drove to work and back today...

...coz the weather here in Colorado was pretty good. Sorry to everyone who froze their nuts off today.

Anyway.

Increasing the spring and shock rates has transformed the handling.
And the brakes... Oh lordie :D :headbang: :D :headbang: :D :headbang: :D :headbang: :D :headbang:

It's inspired me to get the new 1.6 litre engine finished!
 
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