Thinking about getting an X

Both are extremely robust and reliable under street conditions IF, the specific engine is in known good condition.

But, the best features of this Lampredi engine is hidden. 86-87mm bore, short stroke with typical connecting rod to stroke ratio about 1.9 in a block with Siamesed cylinders, 5 main bearings and closed deck. These are the basics for any decent race engine.

We have LeMons race abused this engine for the first few years and it held up fine. But, it must be of known good condition as there are a number of details in assembly and related that allows this most excellent design to simply work so very well. An exxe with a proper race motor with about 105-110 Whp in a properly set up chassis, good driver has no problem keeping a race prepared Porsche 928 with a big V8 in check. This video was from about 5 years ago when this car still had the 1500cc Lampredi engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY3GrqRey-k


Parts, what parts specifically are wanted? ARP has hardware upgrades, Wiesco and others have pistons made to order, SCAT has con rods, Cometic has head gaskets and new cylinder heads are available. Due to the decades of production for this engine world wide, parts are often not too much of a problem.

Bernice



What is the consensus on 1300 vs 1500? Reliability, and parts availability being my biggest concerns.
 
Seen the diff shatter on the 5 speed gear boxes and the results are often really messy. What can help is to de-burr the rough edges on the spider gear housing, then take the de-burred housing to a specialist to have it shot peened. This can help but does not completely or always solve the problem.

+1 on the above. Another step that could help (I have not done this on a five speed X19 but the process would be the same) would be to have the differential centre cryogenically stabilised, after deburring and shot peening.

But if it was a repeated problem, a good machinist could make one from billet, which isn't always stronger I know (grain patterns in the metal) but the bottom line is the transmissions are not "made of glass" as has been said by some in the past... and are in fact quite robust and very clever in design and execution of the packaging and engineering.

SteveC
 
Everyone seems to be leaving out the other 200HP+ option, an engine swap.

Matt over at Midwest-Bayless has an engine mount kit and driveshafts for a K20 series engine/transmission mod. I think they were talking up to 240HP.

It requires a lot of work, but if you're really looking for a pocket rocket...

looking thru some old threads found a couple of really interesting posts by Steve Hoelscher on the subject of engine swaps in an X19...I think these say it all.

Consider the great sporting cars of all time. The one thing they all had in common, a great engine. Perhaps not the most powerful, but a great engine none the less.

Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Porsche, all build cars that are forever identified by their combination of chassis and engine. When Porsche dared to build water cooled, in-line engines, their customers were slow to acknowledge them as Porsches. That despite the fact that a front engine, water cooled Porsche was arguably a better car than the old 911.

There were many attempts over the years to build rivals to Ferrari. Iso, Bizzarrini, De Tomaso, all built sporting cars with fine Italian coachwork and chassis. But the soul of a Corvette? Small block Chevys and Fords left customers wanting. This despite the cars being just as fast and more reliable (and cheaper to maintain) than their pedigreed rivals.

Fiat's SOHC is one of the sweetest 4 cylinder engines I have ever driven, and I have driven most of the best. In 1290 cc (1300 X1/9) form it delivers the most satifying of sensory input. Its liquid smooth feel and tenor wail are without equal.

Driving my '74 you will find the experience dominated by the engine. The sound, feel and feedback is ever present in everything about driving it. Every stopsign is another opportunity to run it through the gears and enjoy the sound and fury. It is as if the car is constantly poking you in the ribs and saying; "go fast...go fast...go fast..." It is ALWAYS eager to respond to the whip.

Not long ago a friend of mine was riding with me in my '74. We were motoring along in traffic. He (owner of an Acura Integra) commented on how the engine rev'ed and sounded. (in traffic I normally shift the car at about 6500 rpm) Once clear of the traffic I ran it up to the normal shift point (in 2nd gear) and then planted my foot, running the tach off the scale (well past the 8000 rpm mark). His jaw dropped. I couldn't help but laugh at him.

Steve

and

Ever considered...?

December 1 1999, 7:56 PM


...that the X1/9 was penned by Gandini and powered by Lampredi. Ever thought of just how exclusive that combination is?

Something I should have mentioned earlier. I have always liked tiny little, high winding engines, in nimble little cars. (Sort of the inverse of a Cobra) I very much like the challenge of driving such a car. It requires much more of the driver than a powerful engine, that only requires you to stomp on the throttle to go fast.

Steve

The above is exactly how I feel about the X19's engine and chassis combination, and these quotes will definitely find their way into my book... which won't have any mention of 'that four letter word...'

I think anyone who considers turning their back on of one of Aurelio Lampredi's finest works just hasn't driven a well prepped one...obviously... otherwise a different engine just wouldn't even be in the equation.

SteveC
 
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good stuff,
makes me think I should be more willing to wind out my 1500, I'm apparently shifting too early!
 
If the engine must be "prepped"...

I think anyone who considers turning their back on of one of Aurelio Lampredi's finest works just hasn't driven a well prepped one...obviously... otherwise a different engine just wouldn't even be in the equation.

Then by definition a different engine is ALREADY in the equation. :laugh:

I love the SOHC Fiat engine, but have to agree with Car & Driver (or maybe R&T, don't remember for sure) who said something like "It's a great little engine. But it is just that, a little engine."

I understand opinions vary about swaps, some people want to keep it "all Fiat" or "all Italian" (despite the Bosch/German parts :hmm:). But others have no problem with a swap and it's a valid consideration as part of X1/9 ownership. I don't regret my swap in the least. Someone whose opinion on Fiats that I greatly respect (yours) once implied that I "ruined my car" with the swap. But I guarantee that has not been the reaction of a single person out of the dozens of X1/9 owners I have given rides to. :)

Different strokes...

Pete
 
Well I can't stand around and leave Steve on his own. The SOHC is an amazing engine. It WANTS to have its daylights flogged to within an inch of its life every time you drive it - and it rewards you for doing it. But more to the point is SUITS the car perfectly. It's just RIGHT. AND it seems to do so even when tuned to varying degrees.

OK. I'm a purist (I'm not sure how that ever became a term of derision?) so my racecar HAD to be Fiat powered - the obvious choice was a traditional Fiat DOHC. But I have NO regrets going for the Brava 16v version of the "little" (again, is that a BAD thing?) SOHC. It SOUNDS like an X1/9. It FEELS like an X1/9. It TALKS to me.

People shouldn't assume that just because there isn't much sledging of swaps in open forum (I suspect because this is a "polite" place - unlike many other forums) that the bulk of us agree with them. My personal opinion is that marque or model specific forums like this one should have separate "Fionda"/"Fiazda"/etc sections so us "purists" can easily avoid threads that don't really interest us.

I'm not sure that lot is enough for me to crack out the flameproof suit - so I'll chuck a picture in too:

11887950_401480263382096_9106027946978699174_n.jpg


:laugh:
 
Didn't mean to spark a flame-fest, but I suppose that will always happen when purists and enthusiasts collide.

Yes, you can get upwards of 130hp out of the little engine (na), but not if you're keeping it "pure" as designed. I'm actually looking to have one of each myself, a "pure" exxy and a hot rod exxy.

BTW, "pure" gets harder to do every day. Parts are becoming more difficult to locate, driving people to look at other options.
 
Then by definition a different engine is ALREADY in the equation. :laugh:

Actually I disagree with this statement, hand finishing the parts of the same engine, still make it the same engine. The little sohc is a production engine, with scant regard to the finer points of port flow and performance. All it takes to get some worthwhile gains is to mix and match parts from the Fiat part bin, and a bit of hand finishing... I have personally achieved 99RWHP from standard inlet and exhaust manifolding, standard valve sizes, and production carburettor... the only non standard part was the camshaft...sure there was plenty of attention to detail, but it was as Aurelio designed it.

BTW, "pure" gets harder to do every day. Parts are becoming more difficult to locate, driving people to look at other options.

Again I disagree, in fact I think performance parts for the sohc are in fact a little easier to find these days, aftermarket conrods, ARP fasteners, stroker production cranks, tipo production BV heads, manifolds are simple to find, aftermarket megasquirt and megajolt (where was that in the 70's)

Again if more people took the time to research their options instead of thinking of "that four letter word" the parts would be bought to market even cheaper and more readily... just think of that next time you mention "that four letter word"

SteveC
 
Again I disagree, in fact I think performance parts for the sohc are in fact a little easier to find these days, aftermarket conrods, ARP fasteners, stroker production cranks, tipo production BV heads, manifolds are simple to find, aftermarket megasquirt and megajolt (where was that in the 70's)

By definition, these mods mean the engine is no longer 'pure'. What I'm hearing is that it's ok to change everything but the block; that's where we draw the line.

BTW, I'm currently stuck looking for parts. Eventually, we all run out of 'original' parts and have to compromise. We also make modifications to make the vehicle more reliable or more drivable. From mods as simple as the BWM to 'four letter word's.
 
I certainly don't disagree with any of that...

Actually I disagree with this statement, hand finishing the parts of the same engine, still make it the same engine. The little sohc is a production engine, with scant regard to the finer points of port flow and performance. All it takes to get some worthwhile gains is to mix and match parts from the Fiat part bin, and a bit of hand finishing... I have personally achieved 99RWHP from standard inlet and exhaust manifolding, standard valve sizes, and production carburettor... the only non standard part was the camshaft...sure there was plenty of attention to detail, but it was as Aurelio designed it.

It is patently true. However, it is also patently true of every other engine out there, so this does nothing to make the SOHC any more special to me.

I would also point out that most people don't have the ability to do this. Many have not rebuilt an engine, and even those who have do not have years of experience in knowing where to make improvements that create more power. I definitely fall into this category.

So then it becomes an exercise in "how fast can I afford to go" which mostly amounts to paying people like you. Nothing wrong with that, but at some point the law of diminishing returns kicks in and it's just easier/cheaper to swap that to keep pushing that little engine to its breaking point. An engine that is designed to make 200hp in stock form (before any "prepping") is inherently more reliable at 200hp than an engine that had to be massaged to produce 3x it's rated hp.

Pete
 
motors

imagine my horror that the late al c. went to the wankel motor. the rotary Mazda ,and then planted one in an x.
no wind in my sails that day.
if you need a transplant to make your day....cool. but the sound and feel of the original motor is why we drive these little gems anyway
isn't it?? I was going to say turds instead of gems and thought of all the hate mail heading my way.
especially from papa tony and tommy:shock2:
mikemo
 
Different strokes & timing

;);)I as some of you might recall from my first post on the X forum have a '61 Austin Se7en Mini with a 2l Honda VTEC conversion.

When I found the Se7en and started the conversion I felt it was "Ok" to do this to an early model sliding window Mini because it already had the body cut up and the Zmax body kit installed. So to me the Mini was no longer very pure and could be used for this purpose (there was no way it was going to go back to original at this point).

Well come time for a new project, an X project :italia:, only a '74 really made since for me - living in Cali (I hate arbitrary restrictions on power).

With the X being a '74 and all there and mostly original I feel it only prudent to keep with X power and stroke it. This way even with dual webers ext. it will still be an X power plant just tweaked a touch ;)

By the way, not now but in the future I will be looking for the best way to stroke my 1300, and here is the kicker - I will be looking for one already assembled or for a builder to use my 1300. :hmm:
 
With the X being a '74 and all there and mostly original I feel it only prudent to keep with X power and stroke it. This way even with dual webers ext. it will still be an X power plant just tweaked a touch ;)

By the way, not now but in the future I will be looking for the best way to stroke my 1300, and here is the kicker - I will be looking for one already assembled or for a builder to use my 1300. :hmm:

Well that's what would be known as "period correct" modification... which In my part of the world is sometimes the ONLY way you can modify a car and still expect to license and insure it...and in many cases retain your concessional licensing (think $50 a year registration compared to $500 a year on full rego)

They will let you run twin webers, but forget fuel injection and throttle bodies. You can run electronic ignition, but forget multiple coil packs and crank triggers. Keeping the original engine type and stroking to increase capacity, fine, but change the engine to a later type for increased capacity ... a no no. Turbo charging... not even in the picture.

The engine swap exception (in an X19's case) would be a Fiat 8 valve twin cam from the same period as the car, which I how I've modified one of my X19's, using a 1978 built twin cam in my 1978 series one, still considered period correct as it's from the same parent manufacturer.

Trust me I lamented for a long time before I cut a very small section from the LH rear chassis rail to be able to fit the Lancia transmission (still period correct) ... but I've still got the small cut out section and built the car so it was completely reversible... (you could hardly say the same of one of these K20 abominations.)

In every other part of the world (apart from North America it seems)to perform chasis modifications and removing structural bodywork components would require engineering approval and testing...I'm talking real testing that costs real dollars. Mounting the chassis on a test rig and PROVING that the structural integrity has not be affected by performing a ridgidity test, basically twisting the chassis to see if it bends...the costs of a test like this run into the thousands, and without it, the car would never be able to be registered or insured... factor that into a K20 swap and spending a decent sum of money on the original engine to get 150/160 at the crank begins to look cheap and viable.

It even affects any sort of competition you want to get involved in...there simply isn't a class that you could be competitive in unless you keep it period correct...if your entry is accepted in the first place... and personally I'm all for it.

SteveC
 
...
In every other part of the world (apart from North America it seems)...

God Bless America!
It's a State thing. Some care, many don't. In Michigan, AFAIK, you can do whatever the heck you want, the state never checks much less gives a fart, just keep paying your exorbitant fees and taxes. I will say it just doesn't seem to be a problem (letting people build franinstein cars in their sheds with duct tape and nuclear waste). No harm no foul.:laugh: I still can't believe I drive around everyday (and much of the winter) on "historic" plates and the police just don't care, I've even been pulled over and he just didn't care. Great country this,
 
so this does nothing to make the SOHC any more special to me.

Serious? Sounds like someone needs to watch some Franz Koob videos!

This is the first one I found. They're all full of SOHC goodness. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG2QgT2pgTs

I've been around Fiat SOHC's all my driving life - but a very memorable event was flying into Adelaide from Sydney with my mate who purchased, sight unseen, a 128 2 door. We jumped off the plane, paid for the car, drove to a vacant carpark and gave her a "once over". The oil looked fresh-ish. The radiator had a small leak so we filled a couple of water jugs and put them in the trunk. And drove 3000km home. And we weren't mucking around. Never looked at the engine again and the little 1118 sang its heart out all the way home. Never missed a beat. We had no idea of the car's history - even how many miles it had on it. Good luck trying that in a 45 year old Civic.
 
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You guys seem to have missed the fact...

Serious? Sounds like someone needs to watch some Franz Koob videos!

That I have said in the above posts that I think the SOHC is a great little engine. I have nothing against this powerplant, I just happen to desire something more than it can deliver.

As for assertions that a K20 conversion turns an X chassis into a floppy abomination, you know not of what you speak. I don't think any of Matts creations are in AU (I might be wrong) but it seems to me a lot of "knowledge" is being bandied about on a subject that, as far as I know, has not had eyes laid on it by the authors, let alone a drive.

Pete
 
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