Structural Integrity of Fenders

AKimball92

True Classic
Hi everybody,

I am doing some far distance future planning for my dream build. I would like to go with a wide body kit, but made by my own hands. Before my dreams get too big I wanted to close or open up some possibilities. :hmm:

Do the full fender panels, front and back, provide support for the chassis (torsional or other) or were they specifically designed to help with crash loading?

How hard is it to remove the entire fender panels? I assume they are entirely spot welded. Are all those welds accessible without a complete disassemble like DaveF did here (http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/29866)

My car currently looks good but I believe there is quirte a bit of bondo hidden underneath and the wheel wells are holy :worship:. When the time comes I would like to fix this but make it my own.

My ultimate goal flowing through my head would be to create custom made fiberglass or possibly CFRP entire panels that are secured though fasteners and not welds. The initial shape would be made using expanding foam with careful sanding and measuring on the existing panels. In the end I would have a mold on the car. I would then transfer it to a cut and sanded female wooden mold covered with an epoxy to keep it durable, smooth, and water tight. I did this in FSAE and would like to put my knowledge to use for creating fiberglass or CFRP panels if the money exists.

What's everyone's thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Andrew
 
Dallara

I have no direct experience alas have had the thought of making some Jgtc300 style fenders just for fun. From what I've read on here the dallara widebody seems to remove most of the fenders.
 
Dallara kits look nice

I have always loved the looks of the Dallara X1/9 look. If my idea won't work, I will be looking to buy some of those. I have always been/wanted-to-be a metal craftsman and want to learn all the tricks of the trade. I thought that If I did buy a Dallara kit I would use them as the molds only and shape me some panels out of steel. A former boss suggested that. He has restored multiple high end cars with a gorgeous tourer that was totaled in a rollover, shaped all the panels himself.

Then I thought, "its the 21st century and lighter is better," why not try to make them out of carbon if I had the shape that I wanted figured out. If I were to keep the mold and it looks good, maybe I could sell the kit too. But now I am really day dreaming. I don't even have my X1/9 running yet, let alone the Spider as well, let alone a large garage to work in... They will each come in time.
 
Maybe do a quick business case before you go much further

So we keep trying to help you out, being the local guys, but you have not really taken advantage of the offer yet. Before you go much further look at the cost to make the tools vs outright buying the the panels http://www.eastpointefiberglass.com/ or ebay . I had the same idea you have but I was lucky enough to get all the fiber glass and resin "donated" to me as well as modelers clay. I used the same clay the studios use and made a front fender and part of a rear quarter - that was 26yrs ago. I worked all summer pushing clay and actually made a splash of the front fender. When I realized I was out of time at the end of the summer I cut bait and bought the Dallara panels. This info is posted on Xweb but you will need to search it. If you are looking to do this as a learning project then thumbs up but if you are thinking you are going to make a street racer in a few months you will be disappointed. BTW I have buddy at Ford that had a private business fabricating and selling CF parts. If you want to get an idea of how big is big or good is good I can set up a meeting with him. Yeah I know this response is a bit of a wet blanket but this has been done and there are lessons learned that you could tap into and instead of recreating the seen of the crime actually do it better.
 
The chassis is very rigid - some photos

So no quantitative data but I have not had any torsional issues related to matchboxing or twisting that I can tell even after 20 years of track days at Waterford, Grattan, and Gingerman. The body is just now starting to show some cracking but I credit that to shrinkage in the polyester resin in the bondo and glass - it is normal for the age. I did see a bit of cracking at the base of the "A" pillar on a patch repair but that may be from a weak weld. The car does open up with on jackstands but I can't say anymore than a non modified car. The only additional reinforcement was to repair the rust in the shock towers and I welded 950DOM tubes when I removed the rear beam for the carbs.









First Track Day 1994 - 3 years after starting the project:


Last Track Day Ran with Fiat 1013 (I think)
 
I also have these photos as well

This started in Brad Garskas garage when I was 23 before I cut the car up and fit the Dallara body

First Slinging Clay - heated clay in a foam cooler with a 150W light bulb


Starting to refine it


Got it roughed in


Splash for tool - thought I would get a part and surface it then do another splash. Turns out that is not a great plan. Just in resin and glass this panel would be about $400-$500. I cut way too many corners for example there should have been a solid wood frame backing up the splash and it should have runoff added to it.


This was the front fender splash. Shape wise it was very cool but I was never satisfied with how the rear looked. This is the point I bailed. All this material was given to me by the studio guys where I worked. They were impressed that an Engineer would take it on. If I bought the material it would have been about $1500 to $2000. At the time I had no idea it was worth that much. I still have the glass mat today and use it. I will be reinforcing the battery platform in my Alpine with it next weekend or so.




How big is big? Well in body fab it took me 3years to finally paint it took me an additional 7 years. That also includes time I spent on rebuilding the engine through several iterations, redoing the brakes and hundreds of hours surfacing the body.













With a wide body you then get to engineer the wheels



Foam core wheel with carboard band for tire width - this was used for jounce studies









Then you need brakes to stop the big wheels, oh and the car too







Then the suspension to handle all the added unsprung mass










Then hundreds of hours of body work












Then power to turn all the added mass and punch through the air with a wide brick





So in then end I have over $30K inversted in a $6K car. I brake it every other year because I severely beat on it on the track and street. It took 10yrs to complete it and I have been tweaking it ever since trying to wring it out a bit more. Consider all this in your planning and budgeting.
 
I have always loved the looks of the Dallara X1/9 look. If my idea won't work, I will be looking to buy some of those. I have always been/wanted-to-be a metal craftsman and want to learn all the tricks of the trade. I thought that If I did buy a Dallara kit I would use them as the molds only and shape me some panels out of steel. A former boss suggested that. He has restored multiple high end cars with a gorgeous tourer that was totaled in a rollover, shaped all the panels himself.

Then I thought, "its the 21st century and lighter is better," why not try to make them out of carbon if I had the shape that I wanted figured out. If I were to keep the mold and it looks good, maybe I could sell the kit too. But now I am really day dreaming. I don't even have my X1/9 running yet, let alone the Spider as well, let alone a large garage to work in... They will each come in time.

I think buying the Dallara kit is the most cost effective. The three options you are considering will cost you more by the time you are done, then there's the many, many hours actually fitting & finishing the bodywork.

I still have mine as yet to install....

Dallara00155.jpg


Planning on cutting up the body this summer. Hopefully I'll be done with mechanical woes after this current HG failure ;)
 
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I think buying the Dallara kit is the most cost effective. The three options you are considering will cost you more by the time you are done, then there's the many, many hours actually fitting & finishing the bodywork.



I still have mine as yet to install....



45BC6996-0AB5-4339-BBDC-0B01C06754D1_zpsyktor0rd.jpg




Planning on cutting up the body this summer. Hopefully I'll be done with mechanical woes after this current HG failure ;)



Thanks for the advice, Joe. I will really take my time and consider all my options. This is a project for a couple years down the road so I've got plenty of time to thing.

When you get to work on the fenders could you be sure to take multiple many muchos photos of the process?

-Andrew
 
Thanks for the advice, Joe. I will really take my time and consider all my options. This is a project for a couple years down the road so I've got plenty of time to thing.

When you get to work on the fenders could you be sure to take multiple many muchos photos of the process?

-Andrew

I certainly will. Pics I'm basing the cut aways on are in Matt's Thread
 
Reaching Out...

Thanks for the advice Brian. I am sorry I haven't really reached out to you or Brad, but would love to this summer. Paul stopped by one weekend when he woke his X up from hibernation. I do like the color and sound of his X even though I still prefer the green. That trip was when he took pictures with confusion on all the Japanese parts on my car.

There are plenty of projects that I will want help with on the car with many of those occurring this summer hopefully, including the rebuild. For the past couple months I have been making some progress on the car. The engine is completely disassembled and cleaned. I need to post pictures to my other thread showing the condition of the bearings, pistons, and cylinders. It is ready for the machining. I haven't sent it out just yet due to financial reasons as well as I am still looking for a good and cheap machine shop. After we close on the house and pay three months rent and two mortgage payments within a very short time, I will be able to dedicate some more money to the car. In the meantime, I am making a copy of the Owner's Manual, and will be getting my electricals up to par. Right now the headlights don't want to function. The diagrams in the back of the manual are excellent and I will be sorting through that in the next few weeks.

By late Summer/Fall I would love to meet up with everyone and drive. Before then would be nice too but I won't be driving my X1/9. I might be able to join driving the Mazda3 or whatever I can get through Ford (currently work at Ford Performance and have limited access to their M-plates). Also, if you, Paul, and/or Brad would like to do something or take a look at the car and engine tear down that would certainly be fine by me. PM me for any opportunities. When money is not such a concern I will be way more willing to go out and enjoy the X1/9 community.

As for this thread I did not get a notification that you had posted. I am just going through withdrawals and dreaming, just like the other thread where the member was going to withdraws of not having his X1/9 around. Mine is around, just is in an unchanging state. Your posts on all the steps required to do a wide body kit is definitely an eye opener. I did not consider the suspension modifications. I will look through them very closely. When and if that really happens I want to have a really close look at your car and discuss the entire project over multiple evenings .

That's all for now. Be sure to look for pictures in my other thread here soon.

Cheers,
Andrew
 
Well you have some ideas to help with a long term plan

Short term I would recommend looking at what you can do to get your car running for the Freak Out (Detroit this year). In our cache of parts between the bunch of us we probably have what you need so yeah give us a shout. I will look at your other post to see the progress. I saw the engine looked rough but the photos may have looked worse than actual. I will post some comments over there.
 
dallara

when I was building mine (sad fully gone now). I made radial cuts from the wheel openings to the top of the fenders and bent and shaped them to the contours of the flairs. I bonded them to the fiberglass flair to make them less prone to crack. as far as structural integrity of the car the fenders offer little. I just didn't want to come home from a spirited drive and seeing a stress crack on the fenders marring my paint job.
my:2c:
mikemo
 
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