Honda Fit 1.5 Liter 130Hp Engine Swap?

JimD

Waiting for Godot...
Moderator
I am trying to recreate RJH's thread on this swap idea. I posted a duplicate reply and in my attempt to delete the dupe I whacked the whole thread.

I will attempt to put it back together, but all posts will show as posted by me.

My apologies to RJH. :(
 
Honda Fit 1.5 Liter 130Hp Engne Swap?

Old Today, 11:07 am
RJH
Low Mileage

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Indiana
Honda Fit 1.5 Liter 130Hp Engne Swap?
Has anyone here ever gave any serious thought about the perfect X1/9 engine swap?

I know that there have been numerous Honda K20 engine swaps. However, it seems you have to cut into the rear trunk which in my mind ruins the original design and intent of the car. Furthermore, the X1/9 was originally designed for a 1.3 Liter engine. This original design intent also took into account engine weight, Hp and torque loads on the original frame.

The ideal engine in my mind would be the same 1.5L engine the chassis was basically designed for. This means no cutting into the trunk and the engine would fit in the original engine bay. Also the weight of the 1.5 Liter engine would be basically the same as to whet the original car as designed for.

Looking around it seem the 2015 Honda Fit L series engine would be an ideal fit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_L_engine#L13B_i-VTEC

L15B EARTH DREAMS (i-VTEC)

http://https://youtu.be/K6_POGP8D_Q

DOHC 16 valve i-VTEC
Displacement: 1,496 cc
Bore x Stroke: 73.0 mm × 89.4 mm (2.87 × 3.52 in)
Compression Ratio: 11.5 : 1
Power: 97 kW (132 PS; 130 hp) / 6,600 rpm
Torque: 155 N·m (114 lb·ft) / 4,600 rpm (GK5 Fit)
What do others think of this idea? Why forcing an oversize K20 engine into the tiny X1/9 chassis? Midwest-Bayless should design a swap kit for Honda L Series Engine. It would be perfect harmony.
__________________
1980 Fiat X1/9
 
Old Today, 11:17 am
myronx19
True Classic

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto, ON Canada
I think you'll still need to do a lot of cutting and modifications - first it's a cross flow head on the Honda, right? Not much room in there for that.

I've got the right 1.3L engine that makes 135HP Uno Turbo! There's plenty of them that pop up on ebay, rebuild one from the ground up (including turbo), intercool it properly, turn up the boost after break in and let her rip!

And best of all - it is an easy FIT (pun intended!!) and it's Italian...
__________________
Myron R. Samila
Toronto, ON Canada
1982 Fiat X1/9 F.I.
(uno turbo project in the works)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/myronsamila/sets
 
Totally Agree

Old Today, 11:20 am
Austin74
True Classic

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Austin, TX

I went through exactly the same thought process the other day! I ended up looking more closely at the Fit take out engines from 2009 to 2014, since they are single ohc and dirt cheap. They make 117 hp, but likely pull the same as the 130 dohc motor up to 6k rpm. Then I found Walter Biswanger's swap description : http://autox19.com/b16/index.html, and was sold on it as an kinder, gentler, and much cheaper alternative to the K20 swap.
 
No trunk cutting required

Old Today, 11:25 am
Pete Whitstone
True Classic

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: McKinney, TX
No trunk cutting required
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH View Post
However, it seems you have to cut into the rear trunk which in my mind ruins the original design and intent of the car. Furthermore, the X1/9 was originally designed for a 1.3 Liter engine. This original design intent also took into account engine weight, Hp and torque loads on the original frame.
My K20 X has its trunk intact, and the weight is very near a stock 1.5, which I can't imagine weights significantly more than a 1.3.

Pete
 
Old Today, 11:26 am
RJH
Low Mileage

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Indiana
What do you mean by "cross flow head?" The Honda L series is compact and it should fit in the X1/9's engine bay just like the Fit. I also think you can turbo the L series and get more than 130HP just as you turbo the Uno to make 135Hp. Personally, I do not like turbo due to lag issues.

I am talking about a simple, reliable, engine upgrade that produces more Hp and no extreme modifications.

Consumer Reports recently published a New Car issue. In in, they ranked every automobile company on buyer complaints. There were like 50 car manufacturers ranked. Out of the 50 Fiat finished dead last. Why mess with putting in an Uno turbo with a poor track record like that???
__________________
1980 Fiat X1/9
 
A cross flow head

Old Today, 11:32 am
Pete Whitstone Pete Whitstone is online now
True Classic

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: McKinney, TX
A cross flow head
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH View Post
What do you mean by "cross flow head?"
is one that has the intake ports on the opposite side from the exhaust ports, unlike our SOHC heads. This is a concern because they generally need more room (towards the X1/9 firewall), they are not as compact an arrangement, but they are better for producing HP because the exhaust ports are not adding heat to the intake ports.

Pete
 
Trunk

Old Today, 11:34 am
Austin74
True Classic

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Austin, TX
Trunk
Pete, I didn't know you could leave your trunk intact. My main attraction to the b16 swap of Walter Biswanger is that it seems like it could be done for the same or less than the price of the Bayless K20 kit, which of course is just the beginning of the costs involved. Given you've done the swap, what do you think would be the cheapest that a k20 swap could be done for?
 
I paid MWB to do the swap...

Old Today, 12:00 pm
Pete Whitstone
True Classic

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: McKinney, TX
I paid MWB to do the swap...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin74 View Post
Given you've done the swap, what do you think would be the cheapest that a k20 swap could be done for?
So Tim might be a better person to ask. My opinion is this, however... The K20 engine and tranny go for about $5-7k for a good low-miles American unit (JDM stuff is marginally cheaper but the gear ratios are different so you will be turning more RPMs). That's your biggest single expense and there's simply no way around that.

You could re-invent the wheel and go without the MWB kit, which would save you a few thousand. Guess that depends on what your time is worth, you will spend hundreds of hours coming up with your own design (and redesigning as problems arise, etc.). Matt's kit is based on my car, which was the 3rd iteration of their design. So that goes to show that even the professionals can do better than their first (or second) time around.

You will need the immobilizer override for the K20 engine too, not sure what that costs.

All said and done, I can't imagine it being done for less than $10k. But figure that at least $3k of that is money you will spend on ANY swap (raw materials, radiator & cooling system upgrades, wiring, etc.).

Pete
 
I just went through Walter Biswanger's swap description :

Old Today, 12:10 pm
RJH
Low Mileage

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Indiana
I just went through Walter Biswanger's swap description : http://autox19.com/b16/index.html. Ridiculous! Cramming the intake into the rear trunk like that. Shameful. He states engine access is much better than the original X engine....except for the timing belt and water pump. Those are 2 of the most important access points and you want them accessible.

Midwest-Bayless should make a kit so X owners can cheaply swap out the engine to to an L series. I want mine to look like it came right out of the factory as if it were a new car and I was driving it from Maine to California next day.

Pete, most X owners are not going to spend $10k on a K20 swap unless they are going to turn them into a racer. I can't imagine your timing belt and water pump have easy access.

X1/9 were cheap inexpensive cars. The L series is inexpesive, compact and modern.
__________________
 
I believe this is Pete's car

Old Today, 12:17 pm
JimD

I believe this is Pete's car
Pete wasn't at FFO 2011 in Nashville, but I think Matt brought Pete's X.

R1-07398-008A.jpg


You can see how tidy the K-20 install looks from above. It even has an AAC compressor mounted high on the right. Sorry for chopping off the right side. I thought I took a good picture, but I forgot my real camera and was using a Kodak disposable digital camera.

R1-07398-007A.jpg


I told Matt that it looked like that engine came from the factory. There was nothing about it that really looked out of place. You can see in the first picture that the trunk was open and I closed the lid to take the second picture. The trunk was intact.
 
The vast majority of K20 swaps out there...

Old Today, 12:19 pm
Pete Whitstone
True Classic

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: McKinney, TX
The vast majority of K20 swaps out there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH View Post
Pete, most X owners are not going to spend $10k on a K20 swap unless they are going to turn them into a racer. I can't imagine your timing belt and water pump have easy access.
are street cars, not race cars, so I would have to disagree.

No, there is no easy access to the timing belt or water pump, I think Matt told me they are both "engine drop" propositions. But after disconnecting everything, the entire engine cradle drops out with 8 bolts. I haven't had that fun yet... I had Matt replace both these items with new when my car was built, so hopefully it will be many years.

Pete
 
Old Today, 12:00 pm
Pete Whitstone
True Classic

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: McKinney, TX
I paid MWB to do the swap...
Quote:

So Tim might be a better person to ask. My opinion is this, however... The K20 engine and tranny go for about $5-7k for a good low-miles American unit (JDM stuff is marginally cheaper but the gear ratios are different so you will be turning more RPMs). That's your biggest single expense and there's simply no way around that.

You could re-invent the wheel and go without the MWB kit, which would save you a few thousand. Guess that depends on what your time is worth, you will spend hundreds of hours coming up with your own design (and redesigning as problems arise, etc.). Matt's kit is based on my car, which was the 3rd iteration of their design. So that goes to show that even the professionals can do better than their first (or second) time around.

You will need the immobilizer override for the K20 engine too, not sure what that costs.

All said and done, I can't imagine it being done for less than $10k. But figure that at least $3k of that is money you will spend on ANY swap (raw materials, radiator & cooling system upgrades, wiring, etc.).

Pete

I would adjust the $ a tad; a "low mile" k20 is relative. 100k engine should not be ruled out as a donor engine. Trani however should be had with less than 75k if you want to avoid a rebuild in the not too distant future.

I got my engine/trani with engine harness minus ECU for $2500.00. 40k miles (according to seller). It was NOT the single largest $ item. I spent a tad more for the MWB kit. IF you do the entire job yourself, you *could* keep the $ under $8k, but it will be close. I spent more than this (thus far) but I also learned as I went on many things. IF I had more info upfront, I think I could have kept the cost down for sure.
 
This isn't what these cars were designed for

Old Today, 12:23 pm
RJH
Low Mileage

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Indiana

This isn't what these cars were designed for.
__________________
1980 Fiat X1/9
 
I don't follow...

Old Today, 12:38 pm
Pete Whitstone
True Classic

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: McKinney, TX
I don't follow...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH View Post
This isn't what these cars were designed for.
I'm not sure what you are saying. That these cars are not designed for a better driving experience than the stock engine can provide?

Pete
 
Old Today, 2:40 pm
myronx19
True Classic

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto, ON Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH View Post
I also think you can turbo the L series and get more than 130HP just as you turbo the Uno to make 135Hp. Personally, I do not like turbo due to lag issues.


Consumer Reports recently published a New Car issue. In in, they ranked every automobile company on buyer complaints. There were like 50 car manufacturers ranked. Out of the 50 Fiat finished dead last. Why mess with putting in an Uno turbo with a poor track record like that???

I don't think you can easily turbocharge the Fit engine at that high of compression, plus it'll have the wrong engine management and cams (and it has cam phasers as well).

The Uno Turbo fits without any cutting, fits the 5spd transmission (or 4spd for that matter, ring gear sensor should work OK with either), only thing that's unique is the exhaust after the turbo and intake plumbing to the intercooler. Change the engine management and injectors on an UnoT and you'll be making much more than 135HP

The Uno turbo motor mechanicals and electronics aren't much different than what I have now, so reliability isn't an issue. The UnoT is a relatively inexpensive engine to buy, and turbo lag isn't that perceivable - it's a small turbo - spools up quickly and has a short induction path. I drove one, it was ok.

If you're gonna put in a lot of work to get 130HP from a Fit motor - which doesn't sound all that good IMHO anyway, just build a high performance carbed 1500 or turbo a 1500 - beyond that, a K20 makes sense even though it requires a lot of mods..

OR - a Hayabusa, add a reverse and be happy. Small engine, BIG power, sounds wicked, sequential shift, lots of revs and you'll blow everything off the line...


Take a Fit for a test drive, you'll be disappointed.


BTW: don't Honda motors turn counter clockwise? You'll need to modify the X1/9 transaxle or use the Honda one and make sure the axle lines up OK. It just sounds like a lot of work for not a lot of gain.
__________________
Myron R. Samila
Toronto, ON Canada
1982 Fiat X1/9 F.I.
(uno turbo project in the works)
 
Old Today, 3:27 pm

zonker

Just Another FIAT Freak

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Temecula, CA

I can see how Fit motor would be very reliable, but to me I would let the dollar per hp ratio govern what engine I would fit into an X1/9.

If you can get a wrecked Fit for cheap and you have the fabrication skills to make up any part that would be required, then a Fit swap could make sense.

For me though, if I was looking for something non-fiat in the 130hp range, I'd look at dropping a Mazda B6T motor from a Capri XR2 . Very stout (and cheap) motors to be had, and minimal work is needed to make them run 160hp all day. And I just happen to have 3 of them at my storage lot

For shizzandgiggles I just measured the Capri engine bay and the X1/9 engine bay... Assuming you are using the X1/9 trans, the B6T fits in the engine bay pretty nicely! Crank pulley would sit within an 1/8" of the stock frame rails, and other than having to enlarge the existing dizzy access hole to 14" wide, all plumbing including the manifolds and turbo will fit right in!

But... back to 130 bhp. A 1.6 or 1.9 SOHC Fiat motor could be built to give those kind of numbers and it would be a bolt in proposition.
 
If you don't want a Fiat...

Old Today, 4:10 pm
Mike
Low Mileage

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: So. Oregon
If you don't want a Fiat...
Then why are you on this forum? You call the X1/9 cheap but the Honda inexpensive? You can get a Hyundai with 300 hp now. Maybe you'd be happier with that. Please at least post this stuff in the non-Fiat content section.
 
Speaking as a moderator here

Hi Mike,

I was trying to respond to you when I mucked the whole thread.

Basically I just wanted to say that you don't have to agree with RJH's idea for an engine swap, but please be more diplomatic in how you express your disagreement. We try to keep things friendly here on Xweb and we appreciate everyone's help in doing so.

Thanks
 
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