stingray250
True Classic
Nice...
60.00 bucks??? The way to go....
60.00 bucks??? The way to go....
Abarth X1/9 Road testing.
- Thread starter TonyK
- Start date
TonyK
True Classic
Part is on it's way
I will do an update video when I get the last few things sorted out.
The car is running great, no issues with misfire. The major change will be with the security anti-theft system. The car will have push button start rather than a key to start it. Parts are on order.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
I will do an update video when I get the last few things sorted out.
The car is running great, no issues with misfire. The major change will be with the security anti-theft system. The car will have push button start rather than a key to start it. Parts are on order.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
Ev0luti0n_
Low Mileage
The amount of effort and dedication to this car have been outstanding. I can't wait to see the finished result!
TonyK
True Classic
Resolved
All running issues have been resolved and the car will not go into limp mode any more.
I have put together a video with some modifications done and explanation as well, then lastly a road test. The video is a bit long, about 15 minutes.
Next on the books will be to upgrade the brakes and install a bit more intercooler radiator. On hot days of about 90 degrees the intercooler plenum temperature starts to climb. At about 170 degrees the ECU pulls back on the boost and limits engine output. I think by adding just a bit more rad this will resolve the problem on hot days.
https://youtu.be/wgEJdp16zMs
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada
All running issues have been resolved and the car will not go into limp mode any more.
I have put together a video with some modifications done and explanation as well, then lastly a road test. The video is a bit long, about 15 minutes.
Next on the books will be to upgrade the brakes and install a bit more intercooler radiator. On hot days of about 90 degrees the intercooler plenum temperature starts to climb. At about 170 degrees the ECU pulls back on the boost and limits engine output. I think by adding just a bit more rad this will resolve the problem on hot days.
https://youtu.be/wgEJdp16zMs
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada
kmead
Old enough to know better
Congrats on getting to this high point, you certainly deserve it!
Certainly sounds fun with the blowoff valve and its proximity to the camera certainly emphasizes all of the activity going on
So are you going to create a data dump of your hard won info so others may follow in your footsteps or do you think its really a dead end until someone comes up with a standalone means of running the engine?
Thank you for taking the time to make another video.
Now get out there and drive that thing before the snow is a permanent over there!
Certainly sounds fun with the blowoff valve and its proximity to the camera certainly emphasizes all of the activity going on
So are you going to create a data dump of your hard won info so others may follow in your footsteps or do you think its really a dead end until someone comes up with a standalone means of running the engine?
Thank you for taking the time to make another video.
Now get out there and drive that thing before the snow is a permanent over there!
Nice work Tony
Nice work as always Tony. :thumbsup:
When will the installation kits be ready to ship? Hopefully the kit will come with instructions even I can follow. :dunce:
Nice work as always Tony. :thumbsup:
When will the installation kits be ready to ship? Hopefully the kit will come with instructions even I can follow. :dunce:
TonyK
True Classic
The project
Bob Martin and I met at Matt's place in Columbus Ohio in November of 2013 to harvest parts and take a look at what Matt had started. The engine and transmission were strapped to a skid and there was wooden crate with parts in it as well. Matt brought the body of the car into the shop so Bob and I could tear out the wiring harness and all of the modules. At that time Matt expressed interest in possibly doing this swap, but he did admit he had invested a lot into the K20 project and I understood where he was coming from. I had wondered if Matt would be interested in putting this swap into production, but about a year latter he was no longer doing builds of the K20 for people and only selling kits. When I did the swap I put his logo on the engine, kind a way of saying thanks for use of the shop and tools and allowing Bob and I to pick through the car and harvest what we thought we might need. After all I did purchase the parts from him.
The pictures and video then gave Matt a lot of phone calls asking questions if he was doing this swap, I think you know the answer to that one. But that is what it would take is for someone that is already set up either with the net work of people to do the work or to do it in house to make up the components that are required. When I work I get to the end when the end comes, I don't like dead lines or drama.
About a year ago Chris Obert emailed me and asked me some questions about the swap as well as he was getting calls from people that were also interested. Many thought it was a bolt in process. He suggested to me to consider making a kit for this swap. I thought about it, but came to the conclusion that I still work a 40 hour week and that I would now be spending my spare time making parts for interested parties. The reality of it is that Bob Martin wants this install for his Black Dallara and I expect it will happen in the not to distant future, but that is up to Bob. Because I used a test body to sort out the mounting of the engine and clearances this forced me to make jigs and templates to transfer the locations of all changes to the road car. I have lots of pictures, over 500 and 125 pages of notes, as I progressed through the project. The really down side of this is if I release the information every problem or issue that comes to light, who is going to get emailed and called....ME and I spend too much time now on the computer.
I will tell all of you that this is the first engine swap that I have ever done. So I can't tell you it is easy or hard, I don't have anything to compare it to. In my mind going from the concept to a working road car takes a fair bit of head scratching. I think in some of the posts about the Multi air project, Matt made a comment that to do this swap you would need to wear your smart hat to get everything to work. Well I don't wear hats normally, but this project consumed a fair bit of my thought process to get to the end project. It left me stranded with the car at time too.
Projects like this require a lot of time and you have to not think about dollars, because if you do, you will never get the project finished.
I think the K20 swaps were going for $18-$20K when Matt was doing them and that is what you would be looking at for this as well and I am still not at the ultimate stage of development. There is a fair bit of fabrication required and depending on your skill set that will make or break the amount of money you invest.
I had a fellow email me who wanted to buy the car and when I told him the investment he figured that he would just buy a newer car. The way I look at it, is that new car is fine, but it is not an X1/9, If I wanted a newer car I would have just went out and bought one as well.
What we really need is an OEM ECU, Body Control Module, small wire harness and a key that allows the engine to work without removing a bushel basket of un-needed wiring. That would simplify everything. What I know now would take a lot less time on the 2nd install. You must remember that as I progressed I made everything in such a manor that I could quickly reverse it rather than cut and solder wires again to go back a few steps if needed.
The Abarth engine is impressive in this car and if you obtain a 2012-2013 car you can tune the ECU flash. Fiat started locking down the ECU's in late 2014, you could transplant the latter model electrics, but you will not have the ability to tune the engine to a higher level of performance.
So for now thanks to Bernice's posts on upgrading the brakes I have a set of Uno Turbo front Calipers and rotors on their way to Canada. I will also follow her direction on the rear brake installation as well.
Hussein was kind of enough to give me information on locating 12mmx 1.25 wheel studs and I am going to try installing wheels from a Fiat 500 POP that my son has. He will be running his winter tires soon and I will have my car off the road to do this experiment. Putting the tires side by side they are about 5/8" taller but the rim offset is a bit different. These rims and tires are abundant and from my point of view a cheaper solution than other rims and tires.
Then lastly I am considering the Open Flash Tablet which would allow the HP to go from 160 to about 180. When I was first driving the car without the wheel sensors I was seeing boost levels of about 24 PSI and the car was even more spirited to the point is was scary. I was just hanging on to the steering wheel. I could remove the wheel sensors from their wells, that may bring back the higher boost, but it will also trip a few more DTC's. The trade off with modern cars today.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada
Bob Martin and I met at Matt's place in Columbus Ohio in November of 2013 to harvest parts and take a look at what Matt had started. The engine and transmission were strapped to a skid and there was wooden crate with parts in it as well. Matt brought the body of the car into the shop so Bob and I could tear out the wiring harness and all of the modules. At that time Matt expressed interest in possibly doing this swap, but he did admit he had invested a lot into the K20 project and I understood where he was coming from. I had wondered if Matt would be interested in putting this swap into production, but about a year latter he was no longer doing builds of the K20 for people and only selling kits. When I did the swap I put his logo on the engine, kind a way of saying thanks for use of the shop and tools and allowing Bob and I to pick through the car and harvest what we thought we might need. After all I did purchase the parts from him.
The pictures and video then gave Matt a lot of phone calls asking questions if he was doing this swap, I think you know the answer to that one. But that is what it would take is for someone that is already set up either with the net work of people to do the work or to do it in house to make up the components that are required. When I work I get to the end when the end comes, I don't like dead lines or drama.
About a year ago Chris Obert emailed me and asked me some questions about the swap as well as he was getting calls from people that were also interested. Many thought it was a bolt in process. He suggested to me to consider making a kit for this swap. I thought about it, but came to the conclusion that I still work a 40 hour week and that I would now be spending my spare time making parts for interested parties. The reality of it is that Bob Martin wants this install for his Black Dallara and I expect it will happen in the not to distant future, but that is up to Bob. Because I used a test body to sort out the mounting of the engine and clearances this forced me to make jigs and templates to transfer the locations of all changes to the road car. I have lots of pictures, over 500 and 125 pages of notes, as I progressed through the project. The really down side of this is if I release the information every problem or issue that comes to light, who is going to get emailed and called....ME and I spend too much time now on the computer.
I will tell all of you that this is the first engine swap that I have ever done. So I can't tell you it is easy or hard, I don't have anything to compare it to. In my mind going from the concept to a working road car takes a fair bit of head scratching. I think in some of the posts about the Multi air project, Matt made a comment that to do this swap you would need to wear your smart hat to get everything to work. Well I don't wear hats normally, but this project consumed a fair bit of my thought process to get to the end project. It left me stranded with the car at time too.
Projects like this require a lot of time and you have to not think about dollars, because if you do, you will never get the project finished.
I think the K20 swaps were going for $18-$20K when Matt was doing them and that is what you would be looking at for this as well and I am still not at the ultimate stage of development. There is a fair bit of fabrication required and depending on your skill set that will make or break the amount of money you invest.
I had a fellow email me who wanted to buy the car and when I told him the investment he figured that he would just buy a newer car. The way I look at it, is that new car is fine, but it is not an X1/9, If I wanted a newer car I would have just went out and bought one as well.
What we really need is an OEM ECU, Body Control Module, small wire harness and a key that allows the engine to work without removing a bushel basket of un-needed wiring. That would simplify everything. What I know now would take a lot less time on the 2nd install. You must remember that as I progressed I made everything in such a manor that I could quickly reverse it rather than cut and solder wires again to go back a few steps if needed.
The Abarth engine is impressive in this car and if you obtain a 2012-2013 car you can tune the ECU flash. Fiat started locking down the ECU's in late 2014, you could transplant the latter model electrics, but you will not have the ability to tune the engine to a higher level of performance.
So for now thanks to Bernice's posts on upgrading the brakes I have a set of Uno Turbo front Calipers and rotors on their way to Canada. I will also follow her direction on the rear brake installation as well.
Hussein was kind of enough to give me information on locating 12mmx 1.25 wheel studs and I am going to try installing wheels from a Fiat 500 POP that my son has. He will be running his winter tires soon and I will have my car off the road to do this experiment. Putting the tires side by side they are about 5/8" taller but the rim offset is a bit different. These rims and tires are abundant and from my point of view a cheaper solution than other rims and tires.
Then lastly I am considering the Open Flash Tablet which would allow the HP to go from 160 to about 180. When I was first driving the car without the wheel sensors I was seeing boost levels of about 24 PSI and the car was even more spirited to the point is was scary. I was just hanging on to the steering wheel. I could remove the wheel sensors from their wells, that may bring back the higher boost, but it will also trip a few more DTC's. The trade off with modern cars today.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada
Last edited:
kmead
Old enough to know better
Tony, great write up on the reality of what a swap means and in particular what this swap is (significant development work, not for they faint of heart or light wallet )
If you ever wish to create a pdf or other means of offering the info you have accrued on this I would be pleased to assist with scanning the pages and creating PDFs etc.
I know I am not in your back yard but do pass through your general neighborhood at least once a year and have a friend/coworker in Toronto who makes the trip to my neck of the woods at least once a month. The originals wouldn't be out of your hands for very long. Let me know if you are interested.
Thank you and congrats again on your fine work.
)If you ever wish to create a pdf or other means of offering the info you have accrued on this I would be pleased to assist with scanning the pages and creating PDFs etc.
I know I am not in your back yard but do pass through your general neighborhood at least once a year and have a friend/coworker in Toronto who makes the trip to my neck of the woods at least once a month. The originals wouldn't be out of your hands for very long. Let me know if you are interested.
Thank you and congrats again on your fine work.
Tony,
Have you thought about contacting the engine manufacturer in Dundee, MI and ask them if you can buy the engine outfitted to what you exactly need? If you do many swaps for cash, they might be interested in selling more than one engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundee_Engine_Plant
Have you thought about contacting the engine manufacturer in Dundee, MI and ask them if you can buy the engine outfitted to what you exactly need? If you do many swaps for cash, they might be interested in selling more than one engine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundee_Engine_Plant
Coupefan
True Classic
Good result
Excellent work. I know you've peaked a lot of interest, and thinking about the amount of pictures and data you quoted, it's going to take awhile to compile it all into a DYI manual for,those interested parties. In the meantime, I'm (and sure others) really interested in some hard acceleration numbers...you just can't get a feel in a video, and I'm sure it sounds absolutely wicked in person. Again, great work.
Excellent work. I know you've peaked a lot of interest, and thinking about the amount of pictures and data you quoted, it's going to take awhile to compile it all into a DYI manual for,those interested parties. In the meantime, I'm (and sure others) really interested in some hard acceleration numbers...you just can't get a feel in a video, and I'm sure it sounds absolutely wicked in person. Again, great work.
stingray250
True Classic
Looking good...
Looking good Tony.... You give me inspiration to keep pressing forward...
Question....
That rpm "flare" between shifts... Sounds pretty brutal... Probably can't be too good for the clutch either! Do you plan on attempting a remedy the lack of rpm drop between shifts???
I had a similar issue with my VW Ecotec swap... Ended up using a dedicated VSS to trick the ECU... Very annoying to drive before adding the VSS and took some getting used to in regards to spirited driving...
Anyway... I hope to be somewhere around 75% back together on my swap by spring... Turbocharging a n/a motor has a way of making one think out side of the box that your already out side of!!!
No worries...
Looking good Tony.... You give me inspiration to keep pressing forward...
Question....
That rpm "flare" between shifts... Sounds pretty brutal... Probably can't be too good for the clutch either! Do you plan on attempting a remedy the lack of rpm drop between shifts???
I had a similar issue with my VW Ecotec swap... Ended up using a dedicated VSS to trick the ECU... Very annoying to drive before adding the VSS and took some getting used to in regards to spirited driving...
Anyway... I hope to be somewhere around 75% back together on my swap by spring... Turbocharging a n/a motor has a way of making one think out side of the box that your already out side of!!!
No worries...
Ev0luti0n_
Low Mileage
Saw most of the video and I enjoyed the sound it makes. Also nice seeing you using brakes from the Uno turbo, which is the car I currently own back home, but I was intrigued at why you didn't chose the 284mm brakes available from within the Fiat group? I upgraded the ones of my Uno, to those of a lancia thema, but pretty much anything 284 will fit easily. On 15' wheels, of course
TonyK
True Classic
High RPM
The RPM hold has it's plus and it's minus. On spirited driving the power is there when you let out the clutch. On the down side it would be nice for it to drop off more than it does. The clutch and Flywheel are big.
See picture. Again all of this is an ECU issue part of the entity of the Abarth engine and computer controlling. I suppose it will depend on how much messing with the control system to get it to do something different. The engine is programmed for emissions and I think that is part of it.
You got me thinking here and earlier on in the project a DTC was thrown P1D7F Self learn failure. The throttle would not learn and at that time throttle over run was 5 seconds with no decay from the last held position.
I eventually traced the problem to missing ambient air temperature sensor. And where is it located, in the right door mirror. Look at any Fiat product and the bottom of the mirror has a nub and that is the sensor. When Bob Martin and I were harvesting parts, neither of us thought about taking the right door mirror and door wire harness, so I found both of these parts on Ebay. You cannot purchase the sensor without the mirror it is a complete assembly. So with that installed the ECU started to learn but then there are other problems and a forced learn is required. This involve cycling the key on and off 3 times in 10 second intervals then starting the engine and bringing the engine to 6000 RPM then allowing the engine to warm up to normal temperature of 3 bars on the stock Fiat 500 dash cluster. A couple of problems here now, I installed a 160 degree thermostat and to get the engine up to 3 bars requires a 70 degree day. Also every time I disconnect the battery I will a have to do this procedure. So for now I just live with it.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada
The RPM hold has it's plus and it's minus. On spirited driving the power is there when you let out the clutch. On the down side it would be nice for it to drop off more than it does. The clutch and Flywheel are big.
See picture. Again all of this is an ECU issue part of the entity of the Abarth engine and computer controlling. I suppose it will depend on how much messing with the control system to get it to do something different. The engine is programmed for emissions and I think that is part of it.
You got me thinking here and earlier on in the project a DTC was thrown P1D7F Self learn failure. The throttle would not learn and at that time throttle over run was 5 seconds with no decay from the last held position.
I eventually traced the problem to missing ambient air temperature sensor. And where is it located, in the right door mirror. Look at any Fiat product and the bottom of the mirror has a nub and that is the sensor. When Bob Martin and I were harvesting parts, neither of us thought about taking the right door mirror and door wire harness, so I found both of these parts on Ebay. You cannot purchase the sensor without the mirror it is a complete assembly. So with that installed the ECU started to learn but then there are other problems and a forced learn is required. This involve cycling the key on and off 3 times in 10 second intervals then starting the engine and bringing the engine to 6000 RPM then allowing the engine to warm up to normal temperature of 3 bars on the stock Fiat 500 dash cluster. A couple of problems here now, I installed a 160 degree thermostat and to get the engine up to 3 bars requires a 70 degree day. Also every time I disconnect the battery I will a have to do this procedure. So for now I just live with it.
TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada
Last edited:
Ev0luti0n_
Low Mileage
I think this topic might be of use to you.
http://t124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=864
I can help out with all questions on parts you can source from the European market, should you be interested. I have a Uno turbo mk2 back home with lots of mods, and I was part of the fiat group all my life. I am still fairly recent in Canada so things are still relatively fresh in my head.