Anyone's Thoughts on Air conditiong?

RJH

True Classic
Does anyone have thoughts and experience with X1/9 air conditioning system?

My 1980 X never had A/C and it was carb too and also had the air pump. I couldn't imagine if it had the a/c option and how much of a drain it would be on the already low Hp engine. What are member's experience both with and without it? Did Fiat have poor a/c and was it later upgraded on later Bertone models?

Just wondering as I read a lot of posts here on X owners trying to remove the A/C from their cars to make them non-a/c models.
 
A/C delete

My '84 did have AC , it wasn't working when I got the car and did not want to waste the money to have it re-charged and repaired - I had AC in my Alfa Spider and used it a total of (4) times in over 7 years
I wanted the weight savings on the X ,
Although I may regret that decision on my 9 hr drive in mid July to Pittsburgh:nuts:
 
This is a decision that you will need to make on your own.

But the X 1/9 AC works exceedingly well if you know what you are doing. And even if you don't know the ins and outs of AC, if you take the time to make it right, the rewards are substantial. I have no idea why many people choose to delete it. My suspicion is that many folks don't understand AC systems and find it easier to delete it rather than rebuild it. I dddidn't have the first idea how AC worked, but I rebuilt and upgraded the AC on my 79 a couple of years ago and have been using it regularly ever since. Even this afternoon I used it to drive in warm spring weather in air conditioned comfort during a whole series of around-the-town errands with a trunkful of groceries. And this is in the sunny Southwest desert. And we use the X as a true daily driver.

Review my rebuild thread and see what you think. It's a fun project and the results are well worth it… but only if you take the time to do it correctly.
http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/21920/
 
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modern car definition( A/C or not)

For me any car I drive must have some basics, otherwise might as well just drive a "New" car. For this reason pre '70's cars usually do not cut the mustard. Basics include:
1 Good handling ( excludes lots of cars)
2 Good "outward visibility" (Most modern cars fail due to aerodynamic design)
3 Air conditioning
4 Good brakes

Also nice to have:
1 Fuel injection
2 ABS brakes
So, long way around, no A/C= no drive. This is a weekend go to breakfast car.
I think the goal is to make your fun car nice enough to be a great daily, even if you do not use it this way.
 
I rebuilt mine

And found it to work very well.

But you have to take your time and find a donor to fit into your car.

There is no sense in trying to adapt some other system to fit the X.

And yes on the stock car when the AC kicks in you feel the drain on the engine as well.

TonyK.
Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
I support A/C

Our weather is SoCal like and I love my A/C.
If you intend to install one always get an original one from a doner.
It must include the console unit and the control levers, and water pump, alternator mounting brackets all tubing and ofcourse A/C rad,and stuff + all the things I missed...
It is doable but not simple.
 
I'll be adding A/C to my car in due course (accumulating bits ATM and working on a more modern control system (my Arduino knowledge is growing, slowly but surely!))

There has been some discussion about a BMW fan motor that fits in the X1/9 housing. Anyone got any idea what BMW model I should be looking for?

I did a cruise of my local "pick and pull" wrecking yard but the fans in BMWs appear to be VERY deeply embedded in those cars! If I knew for sure which model I was looking for I'd embark on the big job to get one out - but spending a few hours in the mud at a wrecking yard for a "wild goose chase" isn't that appealing - and no doubt not appreciated by the yard's owner!
 
There are many times I wish I had A/C. If I had to pick I would take working A/C and live with the clutter and power drain. I drive mine a lot. It might be 1% less fun to drive and 4% less fun to work on with A/C but 50% more comfortable.
 
well if any of you temperature sensitive types need A/C parts, come hit me up. :)
 
My thoughts...

Start fresh... for $625 bucks!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vta-75447-lcz-a/overview/

UNIVERSDALKITIMAGE.jpg


Adapt a NEW system from Vintage Air. Remove the old evap and heater altogether and install this up under the dash or in the front trunk... and duct it back. The condenser could be mounted conventionally or in the rear, or possibly in a Dallara wing with electric fans!

From my experience replacing a factory A/C in my Vette... this system is twice as efficient, twice as powerful and less weight.

YES... it takes some fabrication and a lot of work but probably no more than replacing factory parts and attempting to get the old system to work. And when the old system worked well... it still wasn't great!
 
Wish I had it now....

My car is 77, and had the unobtanium water pump mount, and the compressor was missing. I removed everything else when I was young, wish I had kept it all.....I could have used the newer compressor mounting, and had lines made...:(
 
I thought about this - all the reasons you cite are perfectly valid.

Trouble comes when you get the tape measure out. Its hard to comprehend exactly how big that under-dash unit actually is (although the size of the unit next to the condensor core in your photo gives a clue).

Even the smallest of the VA (or OAP, or anything else I could find) units just simply wont go anywhere near fitting under the dash. Yes, I tried upside down, on its side and on its end! The idea of fitting it in the front or rear and ducting it doesn't appeal much - I like the storage space....

It was the people on here that sensibly worked with what we were given, and their results, that inspired me to go this path. Sure - I want to pump more air through the evap (the BMW fan has me interested - as does "overdriving" the fan motor, and/or adding supplementary fans behind the outermost vents), and the ducting and airflow control is primitive - but I can work on that. The same compressor is used on large family sedans - and the condensor can't be any bigger than the radiator anyway... so that really only leaves the evap and I think that has been proven (and calculated) to be well matched to the rest of the system.

Really, I think the only viable option to seriously increase capacity beyond all that is one of these:

12858.jpg


And that wouldn't work with the "In Vetro" roof I've got my eye on over at Henk's! :laugh:
 
The question of "to have or not to have" AC is up to each owner, but here are my thoughts/experiences:
When I was younger and living on the Calif beaches I never needed it. Now I'm old and live in Las Vegas and I could not survive without it.

So in my recent (non-Fiat) resto project I took the time to learn a lot about AC systems and how to add one to my classic Euro import. There are pros and cons of using the original 'factory style' vs. an aftermarket kit like Tony suggests. The old factory system has the benefit of fitting in the tight spaces well, but the technology has changed significantly since it was designed. Conversely, the new add-on kits have the improved technology (more on that in a moment), but will need to be fitted somehow. In the end I choose to make a hybrid of the two; using the factory mounts and drive pulleys for the compressor, and the factory evap box for under the dash...but fitted modern components for the rest (the compressor itself, condenser, receiver/dryer, expansion valve, evap core, and hoses).

Modern compressors, condensers, evap cores, receiver/dryers, expansion devices, etc are all WAY more efficient now compared to those of the '80s (or before). They will offer significantly more cooling with significantly less drag on the engine, and take up less space as well.

Here are a few considerations:
If you attempt to resurrect any 'used' system you will have problems unless you replace the compressor, condenser, receiver/dryer, expansion valve, and hoses with new parts, plus extensively flush the remaining components. The change to new refrigerant, oil, seal and hose materials, plus debris/contamination will destroy your system in short time if you don't. Therefore why not replace all of this with modern components rather than original type parts?
Doing so may require some modification/fabrication effort. The mounts may need slight alteration to fit the compressor, new hoses will need to be custom made (actually less expensive than buying new direct replacements), and you might have to design a couple tabs to fit the condenser and/or evap core.

But here is the kicker. Not only are the modern designed parts more efficient, they can actually be much less expensive. The condenser, receiver/dryer, compressor and possibly the evap core can be found as 'universal' fit items, or with a little research you can find suitable substitutes from readily available vehicles. All of which are really affordable. For example my recent project used a expansion valve that was difficult to find in a direct replacement. When I found one the price was around $130. With some online exploring I found the exact same valve was used on '90s Ford trucks and bought it for $9. (yes 9, not 90)! Even if your vehicle currently has NO AC components on it, I estimate you can build a complete system for around $500 (mine cost a total of $400, including finding the few 'factory' bits).

The really small cubic footage of the X1/9 interior makes it extremely easy to keep VERY cold if desired. And the highly efficient components available today will require very little drain on the engine.

In doing all of this research and learning about AC systems I got so excited that I also purchased the equipment needed to service them...new or old. It is actually very simple. So don't be afraid to tackle adding AC to your car. You can find pretty much everything you need on the internet [yeah, I even learned what THAT is].
 
My 79

My 79 still has all the A/C intact, but has not been charged in 29 years!!! We are going to take a close look at it later this summer to see if it can be overhauled or not. If I can salvage it it would be nice to keep that car original. My A/C guys says he can convert it if the evap and compressor are still good. We figure we can change seals, valve vac down and see if it holds vac first for very little expense to see if the system can be brought back. Then we can figure out what to change out. If not rebuild-able I will have to figure out if it is worth investing in a newer system or hybrid combo like you described.

Thanks for the run down, that helps alot.

PW
 
Paul, to some extent you might want to make a decision up front and just follow through. The reason is that it may be difficult to assess an old system like that without first doing a lot of repairs/replacements. Just an example, the old hoses will likely leak but you don't want to replace them until you know exactly what components you'll be using...they may require different fittings and/or hose lengths. Same goes for other parts. So you might end doing half the work just to find out you need to start over....wasted effort and money. Plus as I mentioned previously, most of the old components will require replacement even if they are not bad, as a function of the new refrigerants, etc. (which you'll have to convert to either way).

I appreciate wanting to retain the originality of the car. But in my opinion it really does not make sense to spend more money for old technology that will not work nearly as well as the latest stuff. And frankly it won't appear that different, most of the components are very similar looking to the older stuff on the outside. Especially in your case with an original system to build from (all of the visible interior aspects will be the same). But if keeping it completely 100% stock is more important than functionality, then do not repair the system and just make it look good.

If you have a good AC specialist that you trust then they could give you some advice. However I decided to purchase my own equipment and learn how to use it. The vacuum pump, gauge manifold set, refrigerant tap, various connectors, etc cost about $200 for new equipment (found most of it on eBay...not top of the line but certainly more than adequate for home use). The local shops charge around $175 to evaluate a system. That basically entails checking pressures, drawing a vacuum to look for leaks, and checking the output air temp (if it works at all). Then they charge that amount again to refill the system after any repairs are done. So in one use I've already saved money by buying the equipment, plus I have it for future use. But that's just my view.

Just to put things in perspective, here is what I spent to build a system from scratch:
Compressor $60. New unit intended for a Japan sedan application. Made by the company that supplies most of the factory units to many manufactures. Typical retail $180 at local shops, normally sells online for $100, on sale for $60 with free shipping.
Condenser $35. Evap core $40. These are "universal" units, meaning they are listed by dimensions and not specific applications. Just find the sizes that fit your needs. Both were from a online company that offers free shipping on purchases over $80. I also found they had a roll of 'sealant tape' for the evap box. And at $6 it qualified me for the free shipping (saved $25). Turns out I needed to make a minor alteration to the box to fit the universal evap core so the tape was very useful. It is also used to attach the temp probe from the expansion valve to the core.
Receiver/dryer $10. Expansion valve $9. Both from RockAuto, intended for other applications but fit my needs (see my other post).
The compressor mount and crank drive pulley I purchased used for $20. Likewise I bought a used heater/AC box for the same model as mine. This was a direct replacement for my non-AC box. With controls $40.
I got the barrier hoses and needed fittings from a local shop. The deal was I take the pieces home, figure out how I wanted them arranged, marked them for fitting, then returned to the shop to have the ends crimped on. Total $100.
Total for the above parts $320. Some misc. bits was another $30. Refrigerant cost $30. Less than $400 for everything.
As mentioned above I bought my own charging equipment for $200. But even if I paid to have that done at a shop the total system build would be right around $500 (the charging service includes refrigerant) with all new parts. And all of the working components are the latest technology.

Just to be clear, I had never attempted any AC work prior to this and really knew extremely little about it. But I enjoy doing the research and learning how to tackle a new challenge. It also helps that I have more time on my hands these days.
 
Well I always like to learn something! So I've got a few questions - because I'm at the right stage in the project to learn more!

As far as I am aware the compressors in our cars (5 pistons) are exactly the same as the ones Vintage Air et al supply (manifolding aside) - there is an option to go 7 piston which is supposedly smoother and marginally higher in capacity - but from what I understand compressor capacity is not an issue for us. If we should be considering some sort of different "new tech" compressor - any suggestions? Fabrication of mounts etc is no concern to me - although a physically larger compressor would be hard to fit...

From what I have read here the condensor that fits (11X22X0.88 Superflow) that most people are using is about it, space wise. What "new technology" solution should I be considering?

Any suggestions on a more modern evap core that will fit (mods or drop-in, no concern) into our airbox?

My strategy was a new 5 piston Sanden (not Chinese copy) compressor, universal condensor as above, new horizontal receiver/dryer, New TX Valve, trinary switch, standard (good) evap, all new plumbing R134a barrier type), upgraded fan and some tinkering with the ductwork. I will be replacing the vacuum operation with servomotors and switching the compressor through my Haltech ECU. This is in line with the excellent (and detailed) technical article written here by LarryC. http://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?posts/177987/ . The only part there that I can see doesn't meet your "new tech" recommendation is the evap core? So any thoughts there on what might fit? Or at least what I should be looking for when doing my own research?
 
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"Dr." Jeff, Long write-up

but short on X 1/9 specifics if I am not mistaken. You need to provide some specifics related to the X 1/9, not a hypothetical import. Better yet examples and pictures from an X 1/9.

I replaced all the components in my original AC system with new components, including fittings, 134a barrier hoses, expansion valve, dryer, 7-cylinder compressor, and modern larger condenser. It cools very well. The interior of the X 1/9 is small so the needs of the AC system are likewise small. What I am saying is that this is not a difficult problem requiring complete re-engineering. The modern replacement components that can be used off the shelf are all standard, low cost AC components. With the exception of the evaporator box and the mounts for the compressor and other similar details, they can all be replaced with modern equivalents as I have done. But completely re-engineering the air delivery system and configuration of the AC-Heater box would cost more than the lesser costs of the these new components of which you speak.

I knew nothing about AC before I started my AC restoration project. But I soon discovered that the concepts and tools are simple enough that anyone can work on their on AC system, including completely rebuilding it to modern specifications. I did this for a few hundred dollars. This includes replacing everything except the evaporator with new modern components.

The X 1/9 evaporator box a difficult item to replace with another unit whenever I hear someone talk about aftermarket systems, all I want to know is how they are going to replace the 128 cubic inch evaporator with a better one. And how the system is going to be integrated in a secure and workable form with the rest of the under dash area and ventilation system. And if "better evaporator" means bigger, how they are going to fit a bigger condenser. The condenser I am using now approaches the dimensions of the radiator itself.

So these are great ideas of which you speak, but please show us an example with an X 1/9.
 
Larry can you tell me a little about the standard pipework routing? As we never got A/C cars here I don't have any reference point - apart from some fuzzy pictures in the factory manual!

I regularly refer to your system drawing but I'm not 100% clear on some of the hoses run - eg the one from the evap to the frost prevent valve - does that run in the cabin? Down the tunnel? through the sill? And the one from the dryer to the TX valve - does that run over the steering rack? Or under the floor? If you have any photos they would be invaluable also.

Sorry - I know these are probably obvious questions but I'm flying a little blind here!
 
Hi guys, I think I can respond to both "Franken" and "LarryC" at the same time.
My comments were purposefully generic, due to variations that might be encountered on different years, makes, models...but the concepts are the same. The 'modern' equipment I'm referring to are things like a parallel flow condenser, high-efficiency evap core (notice I keep saying "core", not the entire evap box), and compressors like the Sanden SD5HT14 (a smaller version of the SD508 used by all of the retro-fit kits). By comparison, most small cars of the '70s and early '80 still had the big York piston compressor (extremely large, heavy, terribly inefficient, and very rough and noisy), serpentine or non-parallel condensers (perhaps the largest area for improvement), and evap cores that were not the tight finned high-efficiency stacked items (much the same as a older style radiator compared to the high-efficiency units). From the sounds of it LarryC has already done exactly what I am saying. Perhaps my prior comments were not clear, but basically we are on the same page.
Therefore I was not intending to re-engineer anything, just saying if someone wanted to re-do their old system or add one where it never existed, then use the better components (as noted) of today rather than all of the stock original stuff from the '70s. I had the impression that some members were intending to retain all of the factory issued components and try to get them working.
However one of my main intentions was to say AC systems are not difficult to work on and anyone can add / rebuild one. Just like LarryC, I started knowing very little about it. But ended up designing a complete system in a car that never had it. And it works amazing in 120* desert heat on a small '70s 4-cyl Euro sports car.
Hope this clears things up a little. Apology if anyone was offended by my thoughts.
 
Evaporator

The evaporator and condenser used in the Fiat AC system are made of copper. Pretty much bullet proof and easy to repair. I have the AC working in my 87 car with the Abarth engine and stock AC compressor for that motor. I am running 1 pound of Dura Cool then top off with 134a to obtain a head pressure of 275 psi. This arrangement will frost the evaporator on low fan speed. A better fan would be a great asset here.

So install what ever you want, but I am telling you it is possible to get the evaporator cold enough to work very well, just keep the air moving over it at a higher speed than low.

TonyK.

Grimsby Ontario Canada.
 
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